Open Discussion: Keeping my info safe vs stopping a crime

[pc747]

I am going to copy the article I posted on my twitter and would like to open this up for discussion. Now before I do mind you this does tip the line of politics but it is a fair discussion. So please do not bash or turn this into a topic of which party or president caused X. You guys have matured as a forum so I think it can be discussed here:
So I will post the article in its entirety below from thenexup.net: Ill source the hyperlinks after the article so you are not forced to have to go to my site. You can read everything here.

I was reading through an article someone sent me (kudos @CJM) and I was partly amazed while not surprised. The article discussed how companies like GrayShift will provide tools to law enforcers to break into iPhones. This article discuss methods used to obtain information and how to better secure your phone and information to prevent that. The question is where do we draw the line?

I am not trying to be insensitive or play the game of “the government is out to get us”. But I can see how, depending on your situation, easily a person can be a hero or a villain in this. If you are a parent with a missing child you want all the tools at the investigator’s fingertips to find your child. At this point security goes out of the window because your only concern is the life of your child (and rightfully so).

But on the other hand if you are being detained unjustly and told you must unlock your phone. Then an invasion of privacy is happening. And with many of these companies unable to protect that information from hackers, it provides for a scary situation.

Just imagine you are returning from a trip from an overseas vacation. The US Customs agent demands you unlock your phone to be able to enter the states. As a tax paying citizen you feel it is an invasion and want to refuse. But you also realize you have a family and a job at home you must get back to so you reluctantly comply. You unlock your phone and they hook it up to their computer system to retrieve information. Pictures, files, backups, and passcodes saved to their hard drive. And you must trust that your information will not only be made safe by the government but they will be quick to inform you of an information breach.

The thought of the government being trusted with your private information makes many sick. Some may argue they already have that information on file knowing your SSN, your credit info, medical info, and more. They likely have more information about us than we have so if you are not guilty why worry?

The issue for many is not the government but the hacking and breaches happening to government computers. As a citizen you reluctantly gave up your personal information (in the scenario above) to get back in the country. But you did not sign up for some hacker to take that information and either use it themselves or sell it to someone else. This is concern enough for many to not want to give up their information at all. Because they do not trust that the government is capable of protecting it.

There are other reasons why a person who is not guilty is reluctant to give up their phone pass code such as the concern of crooked law enforcing agents or the abuse of that information. And a person who truly is innocent do not want to be treated like a criminal. On the other hand you have a detective who is doing everything they can to keep a promise of bringing that child home alive.

So where do you stand on this issue?


Protecting Your Data and Apple Account If They Know Your iPhone Passcode

A US-born NASA scientist was detained at the border until he unlocked his phone

 

[xeene]

Cbp made a mistake by bothering him at all since he was a member of global entry program. But at the time when it happened was a complete cluster **** at the borders thanks to our commander in chief.

I believe there is no reason for customs to ask for our phones besides to check that they power on and not a fake bomb phone.

But I also believe our government needs to have tools to penetrate any smart device of need be arises.

 

[me just sayin]

The company I work for recently opened a plant in Mexico. most who visit from my plant take burner phones.

 

[Zeuszoos]

Hey,

I would offer, briefly, based solely on your title (subject line), the following to do with as you will and please keep in mind that I deal only with facts:

* The nation of people who give up privacy for safety end up having neither.

* When a document references "the people" (as in "the people vs", not "a group of individuals"), it actually means, "the government"and not "the actual people, as in individuals".

* The rights spelled out in the Constitution are NOT granted by the government (also see next point). They are "inalienable" rights. That means that the government has no right to touch them. As our documents spell out, they are given to us BY GOD (sorry, athesists).

* Our Bill of Rights is built on the individual and his/her liberties and protections from God, but as implied, not directly. I.e., it deals with the individual's rights, not the nations, but talks to the government. Remember, it doesn't tell the people what THEY CAN do. Rather, it tells the government what IT CANNOT do to the people. Read the Amendments carefully.

* The 4th Amendment tells the government that it cannot look wherever it wants. It needs good, reasonable cause. It doesn't require a warrant in the text, but our Supreme Court interpreted it as such as a measure to verify (swear before a judge under oath) that it is not being done on a whim, because a warrant application must cite reasons/facts and as the country became so large and populated, a method was needed. But anyway, now a warrant is needed.

Notice I didn't go into this issue. That's because our Bill of Rights makes no exceptions for, "But what if it's a really scary reason?! There has to be a limit! A line in the sand!"

If that's your thought; <SMACK!>

Listen to yourself! Set aside the Bill of Rights because you're scared?! News Flash: It's scarier to live in a country that suspends rights when it wants! Ever heard of the "slippery slope"? It's not called that because it requires decision making steps. It's called that because you slip and slide right down, out of control, whether you will it or not, because a force outside of your control has taken over! You cannot control the 300lb gorilla once you open the cage door.

Besides this, no court has the right to change the Bill of Rights. Remember, they were not given by our government. They were given by God and are "inalienable".

So it doesn't matter what the reason is. Our individual liberties cannot be infringed upon and a phone is our property, just as is our home, our cars, etc.. And a warrant showing the reason(s) for probable cause (it must list it/them) must be had.

As for "hacking" our phones, once a warrant has been obtained, the police, etc., can smash in our door if we don't open it, so why not our phone?

Where I believe the court messed up though, was in trying to force Apple to hack it and put a backdoor into every phone made and the reason is twofold:

1) Once you create a back door, any hacker can get into any phone. It's like having a master key to locks. Anyone can get it.

2) A warrant is against the people committing the crime, not the people who made the product they used to do it.

The bottom line is that if the police/whomever can hack it, then more power to them. As long as they have a warrant, then they can "break down the door".

The police dept's are out of control though, like when using StingRay boxes to ride around listening to cell calls. They knew damn well that if they need a warrant for a landline, then they need one for a cell phone! It's still a phone!

So it wasn't brief. Sorry. But whadda ya gonna do about it, hack my message? <lol>

TTYL

 

[me just sayin]

the bad thing is, we the people are powerless but at the same time we asked for it. We demanded to be protected from terrorists after 9-11 so we got it. The government is doing it the only way they know how.

I certainly don't agree with how they are doing and they go too far but is there a choice?

 

[Sajo]

I have been debating on whether to post here or not. Many people might disagree with me completely if I state how I really feel. But as pc747 stated we should be responsible enough to discuss things here in a professional manner. Thanks to 9/11 this is a topic that we will probably be discussing until then end of time.

I took an oath 30 years ago to defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign & domestic. I took that oath very seriously, and I take our Bill Of Rights very seriously. Our Constitution doesn’t say that the government should just sit back and allow terrorists to enter our country and kill innocent people; or just sit back and allow cyber-terrorists to destroy our infrastructure. If we want to be able to enjoy our freedoms, as promised in our Constitution, then there has to be tough security. If there is no security we may not continue to be a free Country. But I do agree 100% that there has to be a fine line and a balance between providing security and protecting our civil rights and personal information.

Is our Homeland Security system perfect? No. Is there room for improvement? Yes, of course. Are there good people working all throughout DHS every day trying hard to keep us all safe? You bet there are. Are there a few bad apples in the bunch that may not be pleasant people? I’m sure there are. There always is in any large work force. Do I agree with policies that involve making us connect our phone to a government computer just to re-enter the Country? No. Are there times of heightened security when it may be necessary at certain points-of-entry? Yes. Do we, the general public, need to know the specifics about the heightened security and reasons why? Nope. Am I cautious and slightly nervous about the government being hacked over & over and our personal data is stolen? Yes, I have already been a part of 2 major hacks and had personal data stolen. I hope the government is living up to the promises they made me about how they would help protect me and my information. I can’t let fear & worries define my life.

For everyone that thinks our Homeland Security is so bad, or our security policies are so terrible or is so concerned about their civil rights I say this: travel the world for a while and visit some places that do not share our freedoms. When the security agent of some other country is yelling at you & pointing a gun at you, you realize real fast that the official passport you are carrying doesn’t stop bullets and doesn’t unlock hand cuffs. Things may not be perfect with our security systems and security policies. They need to be updated & revamped all the time to stay up-to-date with modern threats. Our security agents need regular training to stay current with modern threats. There is always room for improvement. But what we have now is better than the alternative…no Freedom at all and a flag that’s not Red, White & Blue flying on our flag poles.

 

[pc747]

I have been debating on whether to post here or not. Many people might disagree with me completely if I state how I really feel. But as pc747 stated we should be responsible enough to discuss things here in a professional manner. Thanks to 9/11 this is a topic that we will probably be discussing until then end of time.

I took an oath 30 years ago to defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign & domestic. I took that oath very seriously, and I take our Bill Of Rights very seriously. Our Constitution doesn’t say that the government should just sit back and allow terrorists to enter our country and kill innocent people; or just sit back and allow cyber-terrorists to destroy our infrastructure. If we want to be able to enjoy our freedoms, as promised in our Constitution, then there has to be tough security. If there is no security we may not continue to be a free Country. But I do agree 100% that there has to be a fine line and a balance between providing security and protecting our civil rights and personal information.

Is our Homeland Security system perfect? No. Is there room for improvement? Yes, of course. Are there good people working all throughout DHS every day trying hard to keep us all safe? You bet there are. Are there a few bad apples in the bunch that may not be pleasant people? I’m sure there are. There always is in any large work force. Do I agree with policies that involve making us connect our phone to a government computer just to re-enter the Country? No. Are there times of heightened security when it may be necessary at certain points-of-entry? Yes. Do we, the general public, need to know the specifics about the heightened security and reasons why? Nope. Am I cautious and slightly nervous about the government being hacked over & over and our personal data is stolen? Yes, I have already been a part of 2 major hacks and had personal data stolen. I hope the government is living up to the promises they made me about how they would help protect me and my information. I can’t let fear & worries define my life.

For everyone that thinks our Homeland Security is so bad, or our security policies are so terrible or is so concerned about their civil rights I say this: travel the world for a while and visit some places that do not share our freedoms. When the security agent of some other country is yelling at you & pointing a gun at you, you realize real fast that the official passport you are carrying doesn’t stop bullets and doesn’t unlock hand cuffs. Things may not be perfect with our security systems and security policies. They need to be updated & revamped all the time to stay up-to-date with modern threats. Our security agents need regular training to stay current with modern threats. There is always room for improvement. But what we have now is better than the alternative…no Freedom at all and a flag that’s not Red, White & Blue flying on our flag poles.

Very well put.

I say this. It's a sad time when people can't have an honest discussion and worry about how people will take things. We are in a time where people are so quick to want to throw labels on people.

If you don't believe this you all of a suddenly hate all of (insert race, creed, sex, religion, sexuality) people. We should be able to have a discussion and not be so quick to judge. Take time to see things from a different person's perspective.

At the end I will either see it how you see it, later see it how you see it, or never see it how you see it, but I'll walk away respecting a person's opinion and sifting through it because through that we can find a common ground to build on. But in today's internet if everyone is not hashtagging the latest fad it's treated as if they are in the wrong. It's like down with opinions and different point of view and jump on what everyone think is popular at the time.

Sorry I got off track but it's sad when we have to worry about posting a difference of opinion.

Sajo I actually agree with you points though.

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[pc747]

Posting this here as it matches most with our discussion

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[xeene]

Yay for privacy!
Supreme Court says warrant necessary for phone location data in win for privacy
Supreme Court says warrant necessary for phone location data