They wouldn't, probably, but that's between you and your conscience. Are you gonna "man up" and take responsibility for your experiments if it all goes bad? Or take the easy way out? This friends is what men of a certain age call a gut-check. No experimentation or test has any value without the truth. That's the real core of science.
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LG charger on a razr
- Thread starter motaumar
- Start date
The question is not "why" but "would they if they didn't know any better and had read in a post on a reputable forum that "all USB chargers are the same"?
I'm sorry but you are highly outnumbered here in your opinion.
You are welcome to your opinion, but for the record your opinion does not represent the opinion of the forum or the overwhelming percentage of its members, and to follow your recommendations is your prerogative, and as such any negative outcome as a result remains 100% your own responsibility.
Pappy, this is a great question and deserves a reasonable answer.
These "Smartphones" we're all carrying are far more powerful computers than the ones that took our astronauts from the launching pad in Cape Canaveral to the Moon and back. In fact, they're more powerful than many peoples' home PCs of just a few years ago. I still have a 333mhz CPU that I use to power a music server, and as measured by it's clock speed is 1/4 the speed of this phone I now carry, and yet some 10 POUNDS heavier. With all that power comes the ability to now have some highly sophisticated self-diagnostic systems running in the background without noticeably diminishing operating performance. Some of those diagnostics are visible to us as "system services" and some are running deep in the OS and below, which are virtually undetectable unless you know how to access them. They are monitoring a wide range of metrics including things such as orientation, speed, temperature of various components (such as CPU, Battery, etc.), voltages, State of Charge (SOC), maximum voltage, minimum voltage, available current, current draw, radio signal strengths, GPS satellites, and the list goes on.
Some of those diagnostics, especially those which pertain to things such as potential issues of liability - for instance charging voltage and current, etc., are likely being logged for later extraction and interpretation. The phone already knows if you plug in a battery that doesn't closely match the OEM product (in the case of the RAZR not so much an issue yet, but I surmise it is still monitored), and tell if a charger that falls outside the realm of what is expected has been connected. It is this monitoring of those variables that COULD lead to information which once captured and retrieved by the manufacturer could then be used to validate or void said warranty. Further investigation of the actual battery pack could also yield tell-tale signs that could be used to conclude "abuse" by the end user and void the warranty as well.
If a battery should fail and personal injury were to occur, the manufacturer and its insurance carrier would be very interested in knowing if the charger you used to charge that battery was one that with its out of safe range voltages and current could be the cause for the battery failing, which then would mean the liability for your injuries would no longer rest with the phone manufacturer, but instead with you personally. To think that the manufacturers might not be doing things like the above to protect themselves from such liability is to live in ignorance.
Okay so I think most of us are satisfied that not all USB chargers are the same. But to get back to something closer to the issue the OP raised - if you don't have your original charger handy, what's a user to do? How close is close enough and what numbers are you looking at to evaluate that? Hopefully these fair questions that someone can shed some light on since we live in an imperfect world and sometimes find ourselves in the position the OP was.
For example, I compared the USB outlet adapter that came with my Razr with the "wall wart" one that came with my Motorola Elite Sliver BT headset, which has the microUSB cable hard wired to the charger.
I had written Moto and asked if I needed to use the supplied charger or if I could use another USB cable and they said that I could. But can it go the other way - are those numbers close enough that I can plug my Razr into the wall wart?
My opinion - speaking from a mountain of ignorance - is that I can. But it would charge more slowly because it's only 500 mA instead of 750 mA. But the question the OP was wondering about was not will it charge more slowly, but will it harm your phone?
So all you smart folks, here's the challenge. Without getting too technical, what's your thoughts on that question? Would you not use another charger at all, or what kind of specs would you be looking at?
For example, I compared the USB outlet adapter that came with my Razr with the "wall wart" one that came with my Motorola Elite Sliver BT headset, which has the microUSB cable hard wired to the charger.
| Input | Razr | MES | |
| Volt | 100-240 | 100-240 | |
| Hz | 50/60 | 50/60 | |
| A | 0.2 | 0.15 | |
| Output | |||
| Volt | 5.1 | 5.0 | |
| mA | 750 | 500 |
I had written Moto and asked if I needed to use the supplied charger or if I could use another USB cable and they said that I could. But can it go the other way - are those numbers close enough that I can plug my Razr into the wall wart?
My opinion - speaking from a mountain of ignorance - is that I can. But it would charge more slowly because it's only 500 mA instead of 750 mA. But the question the OP was wondering about was not will it charge more slowly, but will it harm your phone?
So all you smart folks, here's the challenge. Without getting too technical, what's your thoughts on that question? Would you not use another charger at all, or what kind of specs would you be looking at?
Without getting too technical? I'll try but I'm not that good at being non-technical when it comes to technology. To answer the question you first have to know how close to stated output the charger will remain. Most quality chargers will list specs and they will say something like "5.1V DC, +/- 5%, 500mAh max". Obviously this means the voltages can range from about 4.855V to 5.355V. Then you need to know what range is acceptable for your device. This will be listed as input voltage in the phone's specs. Often it will be listed as a maximum voltage. You obviously don't want to exceed the maximum voltage or things could get dicey. It will also list current draw and may list two rates...operating and charging.
Unfortunately if it were just that simple we wouldn't be having such a debate. The problem is that voltage, even within a range can be either a clean, smooth line level (think of the water surface of a lake on a day with no breeze), or a dirty, choppy line level (the same lake on a windy day). The level of the lake in that example hasn't changed butt there is much more "noise" on the surface on the windy day. Clean current will not stress compliments, however dirty, noisy current will cause overheating of those components, risking permanent damage. Charging will also be inefficient and circuitry meant to monitor the battery's charging rate may not be getting accurate values with to base it's decisions on resulting in either under or overcharging.
Well designed supplies will have a lot of attention paid to these two primary issues above, but to cut costs to compete and increase profits some companies may be willing to produce chargers that are poorly designed. In fact primarily because it may be difficult to prove the supply is the reason for a device's failure, and that therefore the device manufacturer will likely be the one who foots the bill under their warranty, there is little if any incentive for these competing manufacturers to make a quality product. In the age of mass produced throw away technology, if the $5 eBay charger fails, you'll probably toss it and just buy a new one rather than place a warranty claim with its manufacturer, but you'll almost certainly place a warranty claim for your failed $700 phone with that manufacturer.
Since the components in these devices we're talking about here are integrated circuits with literally miles if microscopic writing squeezed into a space that is in many cases a fraction of the size of your fingernail, that heat is amplified and can reach critical levels very quickly. Inside these devices there are no cooling fans to take that heat away so it can get very hot in one or more circuits and the heat will remain concentrated in those circuits. Heat is one of a solid state component's worst enemies, along with static electricity.
The battery is also sensitive to heat and again clean voltage within the specified ranges and not to exceed the rated maximums will minimize the risk to the battery. Now less assume for a moment that the voltages are tight and the power is clean, then the last concern is what current is it pushing and is it enough or too much. Just like excess voltage can create stress and heat up components and batteries, so can excess current. Heat will shorten the components' and battery's life.
On the other hand, too little current can either slow down the charging process or potentially be insufficient to charge at all or keep up with just the background current draw of the phone itself. So a charger that puts out too little current may actually allow the battery to continue to discharge. This could be a big problem if it results in the battery being deep discharged to levels where the battery's own protection circuitry kicks in.
Since the phone will be monitoring the voltage levels and current levels but it's on the low current charger and still being used it could be fooled into believing the battery has more voltage and current than it does. This could cause the protection circuitry to fail to shut down the phone in time to prevent over-discharging the battery. Many people have reported their batteries actually losing power while on the charger and using the phone or on standby and this is exactly what I am referring to.
The stock charger it's rated at 5.1V 750mAh. As for tolerances, I am not aware what they are but I am willing to bet they are tight, possibly as low as 2%. The car adapters are I believe also 5.1V but are at 1,000mAh (1 Amp) instead, though it may not be quite that high. IPad chargers are rated at I believe 2.1 Amps so they would be far out of range for our phones, and yet they now have "standard" USB connectors so it could easily be perceived incorrectly that they are safe to use for charging our phones based on the logic put fourth earlier in this thread.
To sum it up, if you forget your stock charger and need to use another for a short boost, make sure it is rated at somewhere very close to 5.1 Volts and at somewhere close to 750mAh, and whatever you do, don't leave it unattended while charging for extended periods of time. Monitor it and make sure it isn't heating up. If heat becomes a problem, disconnect it immediately.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk
Not trying to breath new life into this thread but...
If not USB chargers are created equal, then who is to say all laptop USB ports are equal.
How can Motorola support hooking to any laptop for charge only or data syncing if any slight
variance in USB characteristics can destro your RAZR?
Who is going to guarentee that my MacBook and my ACER and my desktop custom PC and
my monitor USB hub all have the exact same USB voltage and amperage tolerances as my
Motorola USB chager? Of course no one will, yet Motorola still suopports docking to most any
personal computer for charging and data sync purposes.
If not USB chargers are created equal, then who is to say all laptop USB ports are equal.
How can Motorola support hooking to any laptop for charge only or data syncing if any slight
variance in USB characteristics can destro your RAZR?
Who is going to guarentee that my MacBook and my ACER and my desktop custom PC and
my monitor USB hub all have the exact same USB voltage and amperage tolerances as my
Motorola USB chager? Of course no one will, yet Motorola still suopports docking to most any
personal computer for charging and data sync purposes.
Great question, and in fact there IS a standardization of USB Ports. It's 5VDC +/- 5%, 500-900mA at 5V depending on the version. Versions start at 1.0 and go up to the current standard 3.0.
I think the biggest issue which can cause confusion is that a USB-A jack as used on our chargers and has fast become the "standard connector" for dual-purpose data/charger cables does NOT have to follow the "USB standard", since it is not being used in that mode as a data connection, whereas the USB Port on computers does.
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk
sally if I gave away all my secrets then nobody would need me!
Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk with speech to text. Please excuse any minor grammatical punctuation or capitalization errors thank you.
Maybe im reading wrong but ...
All usb cables are rated at 5v +/-.. if not..this totally takes away from the universal application they have been designed for right? This would also mean all chargers would have to rated the same or as said before, call your local FD.
Weather or not its used for data transfer means nothing in sense of charging.
All usb cables are rated at 5v +/-.. if not..this totally takes away from the universal application they have been designed for right? This would also mean all chargers would have to rated the same or as said before, call your local FD.
Weather or not its used for data transfer means nothing in sense of charging.
You're not necessarilly reading wrong. Just as with ANY standard, there are some who will use the products under which that standard states they should comply with, but use them in a non-compliant way. Case in point are the following examples, this comes from Wikipedia:
"Some non-standard USB devices use the 5 V power supply without participating in a proper USB network which negotiates power draws with the host interface. These are usually referred to as USB decorations. The typical example is a USB-powered keyboard light; fans, mug coolers and heaters, battery chargers, miniature vacuum cleaners, and even miniature lava lamps are available. In most cases, these items contain no digital circuitry, and thus are not Standard compliant USB devices at all. This can theoretically cause problems with some computers, such as drawing too much current and damaging circuitry; prior to the Battery Charging Specification, the USB specification required that devices connect in a low-power mode (100 mA maximum) and communicate their current requirements to the host, which would then permit the device to switch into high-power mode.
Some devices, when plugged into charging ports, draw even more power (10 watts or 2.1 Amps) than the [USB] Battery Charging Specification allows. The iPad and MiFi 2200 are two such devices.[SUP][60][/SUP] Barnes & Noble NOOK devices also require a special charger that runs at 1.9 Amps. [SUP][61]" [/SUP]
[SUP]"
[/SUP]
Now, you might expect that Apple of all manufacturers (and perhaps Barnes & Noble) would remain compliant to the USB Battery Charging Specifications, but here's proof in the pudding they didn't. So if you happen to need to charge your RAZR which requires 750mAh, and your friend says, "here's my iPad charger, it's USB so it should work fine", and you plug in, you're allowing the RAZR's battery to tap into 2.8 times the current it is recommended to draw and over 2 times the recommended maximum charging rate. This could be the end of the battery for you.
Another problem is that the "wall wart" for the older iPhone and the iPad are identical in physical design - other than the "minor" difference of one putting out 1 amp and the other putting 2 amps So in the example above your friend might actually THINK he's giving you his iPhone charger and instead accidently gives you is iPad charger. Same results, different circumstances. See below:
The next version of this 5W adapter, call it 2b., was slightly smaller than the original shown above, being about 4.5 cm. square. The model number is A1205, and it also puts out 5 watts (5 volts x 1 amp.) It’s suitable for all USB iPods and the iPhone. (It shipped with the original iPhone.) If you bought several early iPods and worked your way up through the iPhones, you probably have a few of these laying around.
#2b. iPod USB Power Adapter 5W (Revised)
3. When Apple came out with the iPad in April, 2010, its larger capacity battery called for a charger with more power. It ships with the “10W USB Power Adapter” model number A1357. It’s output is 10.7 watts (5.1 volts x 2.1 amps) Unfortunately, it looks just like #2b.
#3. 10W USB Power Adapter (looks just like #2b) 10.7W
As far as the cables are concerned, they are all rated for 5V +/- 5% for example, yes that's SUPPOSED to be true, and generally speaking the better manufacturers (read Apple, LG, Motorola, RIM, Samsung, etc.) are using highly regulated supplies, so we can assume that they will all be tight within those voltage ranges. But the thing we have to keep in mind is the cable doesn't dictate the standard, the standard dictates the cable. If a manufacturer wants to step away from the standard for specific purposes and yet still use the connector, they simply don't use the USB logo on that item and they are not in violation of the standard.
Again, case in point is Apple. They use the "USB-A" connector on one end of their iPad and iPhone/iPod charger cables, but the other end is the proprietary Apple 30-pin connector. There is NO specification in the USB Standard for the Apple 30-pin connector. It simply doesn't exist as a USB Standard, so is it REALLY a USB cable, or is it simply a cable which uses the USB-A connector? Another surprise...the cable that came with the Droid RAZR does have the USB logo but the charger with cable attached that charges my Motorola P893 and that has the MicroUSB connector on one end doesn't! So is it a USB charger, or a charger with a USB connector? Again it's left to interpretation but truth is, it's NOT a USB Standard compliant cable.
Unfortunately I don't have pics of the chargers above showing the label side, but I do have pics of the newest Apple iPhone charger, the RIM Blackberry charger and the new RAZR charger, along with the Motorola charger that came with my Motorola P893 Universal Portable Power Pack and the car adapter. As you'll see, each one puts out a different combination of voltage and amperage. The new Apple iPhone 4/4S charger puts out 5V @ 1A (as does the older iPod/iPhone one above), the RIM puts out 5V @ 750mAh, the P893 charger puts out 5.0V @ 500mA, and the RAZR charger puts out 5.1V @ 750mAh (as does the car adapter). Add to that the one above us here and we've got 5.1V @ 2.1A. (click image to enlarge)
So of the ones listed above, only the Motorola, RIM, and RAZR comply to the USB Battery Charging Specifications. Out are the Apple and my P893 charger.
I will also bet they will appear to "work as expected". I think where you and I took different paths, though on parallel lines is that determining whether one or the other works as expected is purely circumstantial. In that, I mean you won't know if it's causing any undue stress on components in the phone or the battery until when those stresses take their toll. It may be that the device fails in 1.5 years, when if using the stock charger it might have lasted 2. I don't know.
Still, why take chances and put the expense of a replacement on the block? As before, I disagree with the implementation of the advice you give, though I don't disagree they will "charge and power the phone". What I do question (and typically err on the side of caution regarding), is whether these third party chargers, no matter where they are coming from may be doing long-term damage at best, and possibly short term damage as well. I will give you that the MAJOR manufacturers' power blocks will be well regulated and "should" therefore offer the proper level of protection and quality of current flow that the phone and battery are able to use - in other words within manufacturer's recommended tolerances.
That's not to say that MAYBE one or another of those MAJOR manufacturers couldn't be using components that have tolerances of a different range, and that those ranges may step outside the ranges of the Motorola's chosen components. Furthermore and more importantly, there are other manufacturers as I mentioned earlier who will do the bare minimum to be able to market their products and make a profit, and it is these charging blocks - the ones you buy on eBay or at the local Flea Market, which are manufactured in some sweat shop in China that I am most suspicious of.
There ARE charger blocks out there which produce dirty power, have little if any safeguards in place, and put your phone, battery, and potentially far more at risk. To believe otherwise is to cross the country road blindly, just because there's "never any traffic on this here old dirt road". You may make it across successfully, but there is a chance you won't. The concern is what happens if one of these charger blocks causes the phone or battery to fail. Is it really the responsibility of the phone manufacturer? On the other hand, if the block supplied by Motorola causes the phone or battery to fail...well then Motorola IS legitimately responsible.
It's for this reason that Motorola reserves the right to deny coverage on their warranty and I believe it is justified.
What's being lost here is they cannot "force" one to use their products only in order to maintain warranty. That creates a monopoly of sorts for said Co. Which is illegal.
Don't just up and believe everything from a Co. Learn your rights as a consumer. They can deny a claim. Most consumers will stick head between legs and eat the cost.
Don't just up and believe everything from a Co. Learn your rights as a consumer. They can deny a claim. Most consumers will stick head between legs and eat the cost.