Tethering: How your phone connects and facts and myths about it debate...

[czerdrill]

Pot, meet Kettle.

Yes, everything here is opinion, EXCEPT for the part where it CLEARLY states in your TOS that they can charge you and terminate your contract for tethering. It also is not opinion, but FACT, that they can monitor your traffic for compliance.

So, it's my opinion that VZW will eventually crack down on this, and they will come after the heavy users first (that's called logic).

It's other users opinions that they are above the rules, and since no one has been punished, that this will never happen. It's my opinion that this is like speeding, just because you havent been caught yet, doesnt mean you never will.

Have fun.

I agree. It's not a matter of opinion. It's a fact that tethering is against the TOS. I am baffled that people are arguing that this is an opinion. Speaks to the foolishness of today's generation. That being said, just because you haven't been caught doesn't mean you won't get caught, and just because no one has been caught yet, doesn't mean that tethering is allowed. It's ridiculous how people try to justify their foolishness and lack of knowledge

Hey, I'm from "today's generation" and I couldn't agree more. But you know as well as I, there is always going to be the ones that push it...Sad really.

I'm sorry I did not mean to generalize like that, but it's really amazing how much some people nowadays have a sense of entitlement and just don't care about things, or try to justify the BLATANTLY wrong things they are doing with arguments like "This is your opinion". It's not an opinion. Tethering is against the TOS, and Verizon, a multibillion dollar corporation, absolutely has the means to find out if are tethering, and absolutely have the right to charge you for it. To say that it can't happen is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard...

 

[aminaked]

My "theory" to what will happen. Verizon can make a good guess at if you are tethering and it isn't based on the amount of data you use.

They know what ports you are using and if they look at a chart similar to what is available here:

Answer

they can see that people using port 23978 with 10GB of data transferred are probably playing [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Age of Empires II. So, put the tethering fee on their bill and let them explain themselves.
[/FONT]

Yes, but my thinking is that since they've charged at least one tetherer by the KB, they have an economic incentive to start looking at the highest bandwidth users. They would start with those guys and analyze the traffic as you're saying. Just to clarify, I'm not saying that using a lot of bandwidth by itself proves anything, so I agree with you. They've advertised the service as unlimited.

WARNING: MY POST MAY OR MAY NOT CONTAIN FACT, OPINION, AND/OR SPECULATION

 

[mcatdtDroid]

Here's a hint: when someone starts off by saying "Yeah, but I guess the idea is" then it's called an "opinion".

You're the one spreading your opinion as fact. "I don't see a bill so tether all you want." That doesn't prove anything.

Lastly, I'm not telling people what to do. I'm just saying tethering is against VZ's policies, VZ can catch you unless you encrypt and proxy, VZ has sent at least one family bills for $18,000 for tethering. See, that didn't start with "I guess."

you want opinion.... you mean like this......

Yeah, but I guess the idea is that most people aren't going to sit on their droid all day every day. It is small and doesn't have all of the capabilities of a PC. The PC can peg the bandwidth needle constantly by watching netflix streams, using bit torrent, playing online games. I think this is why tethering is taboo. It has the potential to use a lot more bandwidth. Just imagine everyone canceled their DSL/cable internet and just used the droid. This would crush verizon's network and profitability.

that last sentence is opinion unless you can back that up with some sort of documentation....


I am asking for hard proof, not, "I think", like your posts are full of.... I'm not the one spreading opinion as fact, like you are.... simply post up a scanned copy of a bill from ANYONE who has had huge bills from tethering their droid (not the 4 year old $18K bill on another phone under different circumstances) because I'm sure, if someone had been billed huge amounts or was cancelled, there would be some sort of documentation somewhere online.... an article... something


But you never do, you keep posting your "I think" and "Yeah but I guess"

We're not seeing eye to eye. Yes, I try to admit when I'm just giving an opinion or speculating. You seem to think that's a bad thing, which I don't get. What do you think a discussion board is, The Inquisition?

I am pointing out facts. I won't go over all of them here, but if you'd calm down you might realize that I don't have any agenda but to tell people that Verizon could potentially crack down on tetherers. I've suggested some factual ways to not be found out. I've pointed to an article where Verizon has charged a tetherer a lot of money.

I addressed that.... you found a tetherer from an different era of technology.... that's not the same. It's akin to saying you will get charged roaming $$ if you travel from state to state like they used to. Plans are different now, no more roaming like it used to be even 5 years ago. So, since we're talking about tethering DROIDS, it may be a little bit more intellectually honest, to provide a bill that was a result of teathering DROIDS on a current plan..... not teathering an E815 on an outdated plan that doesn't exist anymore....

You're doing yourself and the community a disservice by telling everyone that tethering can't now and will never get you in trouble. WHAT IS YOUR PROOF OF THAT? There's no scanned bill. Absence of proof is not proof of anything.

I have never said any such thing..... I simply asked for hard proof to back up the claims your side keeps claiming, (noone does), and I point out until you do, you are simply using hearsay, and fearmongering

To anyone willing to listen, enjoy tethering, but know that you might get caught. I suggest that you shouldn't use a lot of bandwidth because this cuts into Verizon's profitability and IF/WHEN they crack down you'll be first.

and that's fine, but it's opinion until you post proof.....

I will tell you this, too. I'm not saying you're wrong, and if you were to hear of a story, and be able to prove it by an article, or something legit, I would be the first to re-examine if I should tether. But at this point, all you've provided is your opinion. Opinions are like buttholes......

 

[aminaked]

mcatdtDroid,

Yes, the $18,000 in bills is not for the droid. It's not the same. What is the same? Verizon.

You call me a fearmonger, but I'm just trying to counter people like you that are giving the impression that we should blindly forge ahead. Am I scaring you with my opinions and facts?

I have to prove that using a lot of Verizon's bandwidth is costing VZ more? What if everyone replaced their dsl/cable internet with tethering their droid. VZ would have to spend money on expansion.

I do acknowledge that I give my opinion. There's nothing wrong with that. Are the forum police going to take me away? I also give facts, but we've been over that.

I'm trying to get to the truth. Verizon has sent people big bills and is within it's rights to do it again. Tetherers may want to be careful with heavy bandwidth use. Proxy and encryption hides tethering.

 

[LtKen]

mcatdtDroid, the problem with your position is that it ignores the Terms of Service you agreed to when you signed up for service with VZW. What technology they have or use, or how tethering impacts it, has nothing to do with the blatant violation of the Terms of Service.

You have yet to admit that you're in violation of the TOS, and that's all this is really about anymore. Anyone who tethers should know it's a violation of the TOS, and could get them into hot water. You call it fearmongering, I call it reading. Own up, and we'll all shut up.

 

[Mark_Venture]

.... I simply asked for hard proof to back up the claims your side keeps claiming, (noone does), and I point out until you do, you are simply using hearsay, and fearmongering....


...I will tell you this, too. I'm not saying you're wrong, and if you were to hear of a story, and be able to prove it by an article, or something legit, I would be the first to re-examine if I should tether. But at this point, all you've provided is your opinion. Opinions are like buttholes......

"proof" that you want to see aside...

the FACT is, Tethering with ANY PHONE and not subscribing to VZW's BroadBand Access or Mobile Broadband Connect plan is against VZW's Terms of Service as evidenced by reading -> Terms & Conditions or more specifically by the following section

Unlimited Smartphone and BlackBerry Plans and Features
These WirelessEmail plans and features cannot be used: (1) for access to the Internet, intranets or other data networks except as the device’s native applications and capabilities permit, unless you subscribe to Mobile Broadband Connect; or (2) for any applications that tether your device to laptops or personal computers other than for use of the Wireless Sync or the BlackBerry solution, unless you subscribe to Mobile BroadbandConnect.

Notice what I've highlighted in red?

FACT: Ignorance to this clause in the TOS is not a defense should VZW catch someone violating it.

My Opinion... Just because there is no one in this forum that can/will scan their bill and come forward, doesn't mean that its fact that VZW isn't looking at this. Its possible that those who got caught aren't members of this forum, or its possible VZW feels its not cost effective until the usage reaches a certain point, or such.

If you tether without paying VZW for their Broadband Access plan or Mobile Broadband Connect plan (no matter how you do it), you're going against VZW's Terms of Service (that you agreed to when your started or renewed your contract with them). If caught, there could be repercussions (termination of service, hefty bill, etc.). If you're ok with that possibility then do what you want... And ignorance to that fact isn't an excuse if you get caught.


I'll repeat what I've said many times back in the day on Hofo... I'm not going to say you can or can't do this, I'm not going to say you should or shouldn't.. I'm not going to say if VZW will or wont catch you. But I am going to quote VZW's TOS and I DO think people should have the facts so they can fully understand the decision they are making.

oh, btw, back then some even brought up that tethering without subscribing to VZW's BBA or MBBC plan could also be considered theft of service... so that is something else to think about and debate....

And for those talking about "Unlimited" and "5Gig cap" and such... Read the TOS of the Unlimited Smartphone and Unlimited Blackberry data plans... There is no CAP, but they forbid tethering, and that "unlimited" data is for use by your phone's "native features and capabilities." The 5gig cap exists on the BBA and MBBC plans (i.e. tethering or "3G internet cards")

 

[Romple]

No one's arguing that tethering is against the ToS. They're arguing that it doesn't matter that it's against the ToS because

1) you can't get caught (debatable, but see 2)
2) no one can put forth any proof that you can get caught

Stop posting VZW's service agreement. We all know what's on it. We're just saying it doesn't matter. I can show you many people on these boards that tether routinely and have not had their contracts canceled or been slapped with a huge bill.

I've still yet to see anyone with evidence of canceled accounts or huge bills. The $18000 bill was for something completely different (his data contract ran out, so they charged him per MB)

There's only one hard fact here:

No one has shown any proof that VZW is actively cracking down on tethering by canceling contracts or making you pay huge bills.


Note I didn't say "they're not cracking down", or "they can't", or "they won't". Just that no one has showed that "they definitely are".

 

[aminaked]

No one has shown any proof that VZW is actively cracking down on tethering by canceling contracts or making you pay huge bills.

Right, there is no proof. And lack of proof doesn't prove anything either.

Verizon has an economic incentive to charge for tethering/crack down on unsanctioned tethering. May not be happening now, but it will in the future IN MY OPINION.

 

[Romple]

I never said the fact that there is no proof is proof that they're not.

 

[aminaked]

I never said the fact that there is no proof is proof that they're not.

I know, I agree with everything you said. Just pointing something else out.

EDIT: Actually I at least disagree with your point #1 that you can't get caught. I think the debate should be over. ToS and privacy policy say they can monitor your data destination and type for compliance. Only way to hide tethering: proxy plus encryption. I know I sound like a broken record. Also, disagree that ToS doesn't matter.

 

[Romple]

I never said the fact that there is no proof is proof that they're not.

I know, I agree with everything you said. Just pointing something else out.

Just clarifying before the inevitable troll quotes me and fails to grasp logic.

 

[Mark_Venture]

No one's arguing that tethering is against the ToS. They're arguing that it doesn't matter that it's against the ToS because

1) you can't get caught (debatable, but see 2)
2) no one can put forth any proof that you can get caught

Stop posting VZW's service agreement. We all know what's on it. We're just saying it doesn't matter. I can show you many people on these boards that tether routinely and have not had their contracts canceled or been slapped with a huge bill.

I've still yet to see anyone with evidence of canceled accounts or huge bills. The $18000 bill was for something completely different (his data contract ran out, so they charged him per MB)

There's only one hard fact here:

No one has shown any proof that VZW is actively cracking down on tethering by canceling contracts or making you pay huge bills.


Note I didn't say "they're not cracking down", or "they can't", or "they won't". Just that no one has showed that "they definitely are".

So if you are just debating... that you can keep doing it because no one has posted proof that VZW is cracking down... then this is a totally pointless thread.

There are a lot of things we can apply this logic too. Shall we start talking/debating that too?

As posted earlier in this thread... its the same as saying... Since I wont get caught speeding it must be ok even though its against the law... and since no one has provided me proof they got a ticket going down this stretch of road, it must be ok for me to speed down it. And I'll just keep doing it until I get caught, or someone else posts proof.

 

[Romple]

So if you are just debating... that you can keep doing it because no one has posted proof that VZW is cracking down... then this is a totally pointless thread.

There are a lot of things we can apply this logic too. Shall we start talking/debating that too?

As posted earlier in this thread... its the same as saying... Since I wont get caught speeding it must be ok even though its against the law... and since no one has provided me proof they got a ticket going down this stretch of road, it must be ok for me to speed down it. And I'll just keep doing it until I get caught, or someone else posts proof.

Learn to logic IMO.

I can show you millions of speeding tickets.

Can you show me one huge bill or canceled contract due to tethering?

And my point was not "keep tethering because there's no proof that people are getting caught". My point is just "there is no presented proof that people are getting caught"

 

[Mark_Venture]

Learn to logic IMO.

I can show you millions of speeding tickets.

Ahh, but not in the last 5 years in my neighborhood... so therefore its not the same (I'll use the analogy someone else brought up earlier that the Moto E815 not being the same as the droid...) or its not in the same city.. so again, not the same (akind to use using a Sprint bill against a VZW customer)... All very logical.

And is it really logical to assume that VZW isn't looking or catching anyone since no one has posted about it online?? And that is what others in this thread are saying. So don't try and single me out as someone who needs to learn logic.

And my point was not "keep tethering because there's no proof that people are getting caught". My point is just "there is no presented proof that people are getting caught"

I can show you from "older technology" but no one wants that. I mean, those older discussions do set precedence, especially since the TOS back then was similar and nearly identical to the TOS today, but for some reason, they don't count.

But you're right, I can't point to one DROID person who got caught... But here are a few recent Blackberries who did (with the same TOS in their data plan contracts..)

TetherBerry - Page 43 - BlackBerry Forums at CrackBerry.com

Or -> Omg!!! Help!!! Unexpected data charges for Tetherberry use - BlackBerry Forums at CrackBerry.com outlining a $3890 bill...

But I guess since those are BB users, not Droids... and they didn't post any scans, they don't count?

I guess I'll just go back to trolling.

But before I do... Logic dictates that if Data usage goes up, VZW will have to provide more equipment (back haul and towers) to support that continued and increasing data usage by their customers. VZW as a company who is in business to make money is eventually going to pass the cost of that equipment on to the customer in the forms of higher data plan prices.

 

[BigMcGuire]

Holy **** at that last post.... I read the forums.