An email to the VZW CEO

[13th angel]

Hence why I said they way its shaping up is if you want to mod your device buy a google experience device or a nexus.

Or one of the new samsungs coming out this year..... supposed to all be unlocked except for one specific carrier version (gonna put my money on it being vzw exclusive for the locked version).

Sent from my Liberated D2G

 

[armedmonkey]

Here's a good example. When I was buying a phone around June-August last year, I was with at&t and my choices were:
1) stay with AT&T and get some pos phone / iphone (which is a pos phone in my opinion )
2) stay with AT&T and buy an already out-dated N1 for $500
3) switch to Verizon and get a dInc for $150 which has marginally better specs (to be fair they were 2 for 1, and in retrospect it's a better phone than the DX)
4) switch to VZW and get a DX, which had top of the line specs for $200.

And that's how I ended up with DX. Granted, I didn't know jack-all about android back then, etc, and what made N1 special, but the choices are really kind of iconic...

expensive outdated phone that has full freedom
crappy all around cheap phone
middle priced phone which turns out to be locked down but has good specs.

Hopefully the new unlocked phones will be a better bargain.

 

[a44kaliburll]

I think you don't know enough about this stuff to see why your points are moot.

There are contracts and agreements between VZW and Moto promising all kinds of exclusivity. Why do you think that Samsung released the same phone to 3 carriers with 3 different names (and in one case slightly different specs)?

What you're saying won't work. It's more work for motorola, and they won't really win anything by doing it.

Moto wants to keep uneducated ppl from taking up their time on tech support and refurbs.

If you want me to take you seriously, you're gonna have to come up with something more concrete than just "let's petition them and bargain them for chickens", because I fail to see how you envision combating the lack of impetus that a small group of people have against an oligopoly without resorting to terrorism, riots, and extreme measures of self-denial (in terms of the convenience we allow ourselves).

ie: moto and vzw and wearing clothes made 100% on hemp, riding our bikes 60 miles per day, and smashing our phones, what do you actually propose we do? Again, be realistic.

yikes man...you can certainly come off as offensive...but I assure you, its hard to offend me. I do like constructive criticism so that is why I like this particular thread.

I propose a small minority of people...use their strengths to fight this crap...let me explain

First what is it you do for a living?

Say for example...What I do for a living is teach about drugs and alcohol...Now with that in mind there is nothing I can do really relating to building a network or company...but what I can do is promote information to a massive amount of people regarding why one thing is bad for you and why you should be informed about the decisions you are about to make...

turn that into what we are talking about now..

I could provide information to the collective of people who are uninformed...its what I do..and I am good at it. What else I could do is promote safe alternatives to harbor a healthier consumer. I can give the pros and the cons...I can provide the necessary information needed to help build a thriving company...but alone I can do nothing..

Getting back to what it is the rest of us do...

We have developers...we have themers...we have people who fly airplanes we have people who order car parts and smoke drugs...we are a very diverse population and with all of our resources we could make something change...

we could also fail too...but what does it hurt?

 

[armedmonkey]

Again, be more specific. The gist of what you just said (as far as I can understand) is "we should tell people about phones and not to buy android phones from verizon on contract".

Which is what I was saying wasn't specific, effective, or "real" enough.

I may be offensive, and I don't dispute that, but that's not my goal. I also don't apologize for it. We really need a dose of reality when it comes to battling VZW and Moto. Being nice doesn't really work. As a community we can't afford to coddle naive illusions about democracy and voting and how "just one person can make a difference". (not that I'm accusing you of all of those things)

 

[a44kaliburll]

Again, be more specific. The gist of what you just said (as far as I can understand) is "we should tell people about phones and not to buy android phones from verizon on contract".

Which is what I was saying wasn't specific, effective, or "real" enough.

I may be offensive, and I don't dispute that, but that's not my goal. I also don't apologize for it. We really need a dose of reality when it comes to battling VZW and Moto. Being nice doesn't really work.

lol...no apologizes needed...ok look I have to go teach right now...

Ill be specific...

We are a small number of people...but companies have started with less people...we make competition...

Apple reigned top for years...

Google android came out...

Google is on top now...

Its alot of work...and google had a ton of resources...but we have people on this forum building things for fun...nothing...not even a few pennies...

We have talented people who peruze this stuff everyday and those people are sorely underutilized..

make a competitor...

I gotta go teach and I will be back around 4ish...Send me some PM's because I want to keep up with this thread and I have subscribed to it...its kinda sick..i wanna be..beat up by your words because I like to think out of the box...

PM!

 

[armedmonkey]

Why PM? It's better if everyone sees.

Are you suggesting that we make a new competitor for Android, or for Android phones?

While, in principle that would work, there are several concerns with each one that include, but are not limited to, resources.

There's also the issue of, android is great because it hooks up to your gmail, which is almost ubiquitous now. If we made a new OS, it would not be able to compete with that. Apple and MS also have that for live and for apple-cloud-stuffs.

FIRST they got a userbase, then they provided hardware to integrate with it.

If you're saying we make handsets, then the issue is startup capital. It would be expensive as hell to get around all the patents, not to mention actually getting the machinery to manufacture phones. It's CHEAP for them to make the phones, but it would be expensive as HELL for us. They've got wholesale deals, and in some cases OWN the companies that they get parts from.

Essentially, making handsets would make them have to be priced well over a thousand dollars.

 

[dtdlurch]

Wow. This stuff got heated real quick!

Lots of great points being tossed around. I guess, in my view, what it comes down to is the fact that Moto has not made it a secret that they are locking down their devices. You get what you pay for, so they have no obligation to you. You bought the phone knowing what you were getting. That's all that matters in the end.

Does the locked boatloader suck? Yes. Should you have the right to do whatever you want to the phone you buy? Yes. And technically, you do. You can do whatever you want. Doesn't mean you are gonna get passed what Moto set up to prevent you from doing it. But you can certainly try!

It's definitely not a black & white issue though. In the end, it is all about money. Moto is not obligated to make phones for us to enjoy. They make phones because people will pay money for them because they enjoy them. As long as people are still buying, they are gonna keep on keepin on. Good "customer service" isn't an obligation of a company. It is a smart policy if they want to remain competitive. Everything is driven by money. And there's nothing wrong with that. But, I don't think trying to debate Moto on morals of property rights is gonna win any battles.

That's my two cents. I'll get off my soapbox. Not trying to preach or argue. Just had to let out my thoughts since this board was doing a great job of getting me fired up.

 

[chasm31]

It's one big food chain and customers are usually at the bottom. Always have and always will.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

 

[armedmonkey]

Actually, I think a better analogy is that of a drug dealer. The corporations got us hooked on smart phones, and now they know we won't go back to our dinky little slide phones, so they can do what they want to us.

 

[Dr. Carpenter]

I checked out this video "story of stuff" on youtube and watch the FEC vs The citizens united..I think...and it made me open my eyes

Not to start a political debate, but if your going to base your views on YouTube videos, at least get both sides of the story. The story of stuff is highly biased and has been thoroughly debunked. Just search for story of stuff rebuttal and get the other side of the story.

Not trying to come off as a jerk, just saying it usually helps to get both sides of the story and decide which makes more sense to you

That being said, keep the debate going, this is getting interesting!
Corporations are in business to make money. Period. And that's not a bad thing. It breeds competition, which usually leads to better choices for the consumer. Obviously there are cases where this doesn't work out, but as a general rule, if a company is losing out to the competition, they gotta do something different. Granted, in this case, its a little tougher because the vast majority of moto users don't even know what a bootloader is and couldn't care less. That's why I support the petition and other means of convincing moto to release the keys. While I have my doubts as to the feasibility of a lawsuit, if it comes to that as a last resort, I would probably support it too.

Sent from my DROIDX using DroidForums

 

[andylulzyou]

Why PM? It's better if everyone sees.

Are you suggesting that we make a new competitor for Android, or for Android phones?

While, in principle that would work, there are several concerns with each one that include, but are not limited to, resources.

There's also the issue of, android is great because it hooks up to your gmail, which is almost ubiquitous now. If we made a new OS, it would not be able to compete with that. Apple and MS also have that for live and for apple-cloud-stuffs.

FIRST they got a userbase, then they provided hardware to integrate with it.

If you're saying we make handsets, then the issue is startup capital. It would be expensive as hell to get around all the patents, not to mention actually getting the machinery to manufacture phones. It's CHEAP for them to make the phones, but it would be expensive as HELL for us. They've got wholesale deals, and in some cases OWN the companies that they get parts from.

Essentially, making handsets would make them have to be priced well over a thousand dollars.

Just curious, if Verizon came out with a phone that was pre-loaded running CM7 RC3, completely unlocked, and had similar specs to the Thunderbolt how many people do you think would buy it?

I don't believe he is saying we should make our own OS, that would be pointless seeing as Android is open source. I believe he is saying that somehow to community would have to provide the hardware.

Which I think is an awesome idea, just not feasible. I have no doubt in my mind that if "Company X" came out with a lineup of Android phones like I mentioned above they would sell like crazy.

Seriously, imagine a commercial showing CM7 and the full power of an Android device and then just switching to MIUI which would definitely draw some fans of iOS or iPhones in general over.

It's just a shame we don't have some sort of young upstart millionaire that loves Android and wants to start his own business :icon_evil:

 

[armedmonkey]

I'm about to join Skull in leaving this thread.

1) I'm pretty sure Cyanogen wouldn't like "Company X" using his hard work to make money. (see all my earlier comments about licenses and agreements). I don't know what his license is, but i'm sure it disallows you using his work in a commercial product. That would be hurdle #1, they'd have to pay him royalties

2) There is already a company that lets you customize a phone and get it completely unlocked. I don't know what the name is, so you'll have to look it up yourself. The phone will cost over $1K USD.

Seriously, please stop posting the same misinformation and ideas that won't work.

 

[pc747]

I'm about to join Skull in leaving this thread.

1) I'm pretty sure Cyanogen wouldn't like "Company X" using his hard work to make money. (see all my earlier comments about licenses and agreements). I don't know what his license is, but i'm sure it disallows you using his work in a commercial product. That would be hurdle #1, they'd have to pay him royalties

2) There is already a company that lets you customize a phone and get it completely unlocked. I don't know what the name is, so you'll have to look it up yourself. The phone will cost over $1K USD.

Seriously, please stop posting the same misinformation and ideas that won't work.

You are referring to geeksphone and its not ready for prime time yet, I will not pay 1000 bucks for that period. And as far as cyanogen is concerned its open source if you release the source then you cant complain when someone uses it.

 

[armedmonkey]

Even if it's not ready for prime time, my point stands. Whatever these guys are proposing won't be ready for prime time for quite a while either. My point is, that someone's already doing it, and the prices are extravagant. What they are proposing won't be any cheaper.

Even open source software is licensed. Your license can state that the source is only for educational purposes and cannot be used royalty free in derivative works. Sure, it's easy to violate the terms of the license and do it anyway, but that's an easy way to get sued.

If I created CM, I'd be fine with it being FOSS, but the minute someone decided to start shipping it with phones to make money, I'd want at least a dollar per phone in royalties.

 

[andylulzyou]

I'm about to join Skull in leaving this thread.

1) I'm pretty sure Cyanogen wouldn't like "Company X" using his hard work to make money. (see all my earlier comments about licenses and agreements). I don't know what his license is, but i'm sure it disallows you using his work in a commercial product. That would be hurdle #1, they'd have to pay him royalties

2) There is already a company that lets you customize a phone and get it completely unlocked. I don't know what the name is, so you'll have to look it up yourself. The phone will cost over $1K USD.

Seriously, please stop posting the same misinformation and ideas that won't work.

I'm sure that Company X and Cyanogen would have entered a partnership.. seems quite obvious.. but perhaps I should have said what if the Cyanogen Team used their donation money to start up "Company X' considering you like to pick apart points that are completely irrelevant to the main point being made.