Do you experience battery issues?

[FoxKat]

The heating up of the phone during navigation has little to do with the battery. It's most likely the radios (GPS, 4G, 3G, Bluetooth), and the processor which heat up the phone.

What causes degradation of the batteries during charging is the heating up of the anode, the inner-most component of cylindrical cells however I'm not totally sure where the anode resides in a pouch pack battery.

In any event, it's the concentrated heat immediately on the surface of that anode which contributes to degradation of lifespan. Since heating from the inside to the out, the actual temperature of the anode can be much higher during rapid charging than the battery measures at the outer surface.

So heating up of the battery via external heat from other components due to navigation for instance will not likely raise the anode to the damaging temperatures as early or as easily as rapid charging can.

 

[PereDroid]

Has anyone asked Samsung, or Moto or Qualcomm this directly? If not, why not?

TapaTurbo

 

[cr6]

Interesting to see folks refuse to use the Turbo charge feature when that's the main draw of this device to begin with. I understand wanting your battery to last as long as possible, but being that you can pick up an OEM replacement for less than 20 bucks, (which you likely won't need to do for 18=24 months anyways), why baby it? Different strokes I suppose. Having the option to use a standard charger is always a plus. [emoji106]

S5 tap'n

 

[FoxKat]

The Turbo charging was not by far the main draw for me and not the reason I bought the Turbo. I bought the Turbo primarily for its performance with the Snapdragon 805, 3GB of RAM, styling, Active Display, Motorola radios and build quality, and THEN the Turbo Charging.

It's not that I refuse to use the Turbo Charger. I actually have one in my car (on a 110AC inverter), one at the office, one at home and one in my computer bag. I will use them at times when my phone can use a charge boost, like mid-day while driving or sitting at my desk. However, I use a standard charger on my nightstand at night. It just makes no sense to me to risk even minimal (but cumulative), damage to the battery every night by Turbo Charging when it's going to be on the nightstand for the better part of 8 hours plus.

The battery isn't really easily replaceable, so doing so conveniently and cheaply isn't an option for most. Degradation of the battery may not show right away but over the coming 3-6 months battery performance could diminish significantly. Why risk it for no benefit?

 

[cr6]

Good point....I keep forgetting the battery isn't easily replaceable on your device. I don't look forward to the day where I have no replaceable battery option. The latest LG G4 gives me hope that manufacturers will realize this is an important feature for many folks like myself. Hopefully Sammy will return to their roots in this aspect with the Note 5 and/or S7.

S5 tap'n

 

[PereDroid]

Oh, you're specifically referring to using it over night. Gotcha. Yea, I don't use my Turbo charger overnight, I have a qi charger by the bed.
I would think most people have quite a few extra chargers, and as such would keep the Turbo wart somewhere besides bedside. The point is to get a boost mid day. I'm not going to the bedroom for that, the Turbo is in the living room. And normal chargers everywhere else.
My god, fox, you have 4 Turbos?!?
As I've said, I won't baby my device. I guess I will be one of the first to find out because I use my Turbo charger for 15-20 minutes every day. Sometimes twice a day.


TapaTurbo

 

[jstafford1]

I use mine overnight. Its designed to be used so I'm gonna use it. If there's any adverse effects I'll deal with them. But for me the phone came with this charger to use as its charger not just as a bump charge from time to time.

 

[Yeti35]

I agree with Foxcat, the charger was not a main draw for me either. First time I did actually use it I noticed the heat it created and pretty much never used it again after that. I don't have a serious need to charge my phone fast. I am not a hard user, so the battery does ok for me, I don't get the claimed time out of it, but I can get through a full day with no need to charge until I got to bed. Then it goes on my Tylt charger.

 

[PereDroid]

It certainly was a draw for me. Of course i didn't know this would soon be a standard feature on all Android phones.
Hell yes I'm going to use the heck out of it.
Yes, "degradation of the battery could should up" soon....or it may not. Just theories right now.
I'm an optimist.

TapaTurbo

 

[MarBearCat]

How soon before batteries can recharge through the air? Actually that sounds kind of scary, all those wavey things in the air. :-D

 

[cr6]

Point is, the charger knows when to shut down and not overcharge. Also, like other quick charge options from other manufacturers, It only turbo charges to a certain point, then it slows down. I think folks make too big a deal about it. I only use the quick charge cable on my S5.....though I have used a standard usb a couple times.....but its just under a year now and still going strong. It also never overheats while quick charging. Perhaps that's a Moto thing.
The only thing that matters is "what works for you". [emoji106]

S5 tap'n

 

[FoxKat]

Oh, you're specifically referring to using it over night. Gotcha. Yea, I don't use my Turbo charger overnight, I have a qi charger by the bed.
I would think most people have quite a few extra chargers, and as such would keep the Turbo wart somewhere besides bedside. The point is to get a boost mid day. I'm not going to the bedroom for that, the Turbo is in the living room. And normal chargers everywhere else.
My god, fox, you have 4 Turbos?!?
As I've said, I won't baby my device. I guess I will be one of the first to find out because I use my Turbo charger for 15-20 minutes every day. Sometimes twice a day.


TapaTurbo

This IS how it was designed to be used, and in fact is how it's advertised. The advertisement says "It comes with a Turbo Charger—get up to eight hours of battery life in just 15 minutes†." It's not advertised as "Charge from 0%to 100% in 3 hours on your nightstand while you're sleeping for 8 hours"!

It's a unique characteristic of the chemistry of Lithium Ion batteries that they "prefer" partial replenishment in mid charge cycle rather than full charges. The chemistry of the battery makes it less stressful on the battery to do multiple partial charges rather than full charges. Quick Charge 2.0 takes advantage of that characteristic and this is why it won't actually charge at higher rates except in the middle range of the charging process.

These batteries actually suffer stress when near empty and again when near full, and so charging to 100%, or discharging to 0% is far worse for the battery than charging to 85% and discharging to 15%. In fact, when these batteries roll off the assembly line their charged to between 40% and 50%_ and that is the charge level they keep best at while on warehouse shelves for months at a time.

This is the main reason why the phone warns you when you drop below 20%, and tells you to connect to the charger when you hit 15%, and also why it tells you to disconnect when charging and you reach 100%, to "conserve energy". Topping off the battery (charging to 100%), frequently is one if the worst things you can do to it long term.

Still, it does cause cumulative degradation of the battery to charge at higher rates, no matter where in the charging cycle you increase the charging rate, just less so in mid cycle. Knowing this, I choose to charge at the lower standard charging rate through the entire charging process. Again, what is the advantage to rapid charging through ANY part of the charging process and causing ANY potential damage to the battery, to shorten the charging time from perhaps 5.5 hours to perhaps 3.5 hours when it's on my nightstand from midnight or 1 or 2, to 9 or 10 or 11 anyway? 2 to 9 is 7 hours. If I could further minimize the risk by charging at an even lower rate (such as off the USB port on the computer), I would.

Car manufacturers know this to be true which is why we're all not driving electric cars yet. It's a constant battle between fast charging and charging to full capacity to give longer drive times and distance, versus extending the life of the VERY expensive batteries in electric cars and not having to replace them in just a couple years. Most electric cars go completely the opposite direction with their charging systems, giving you the "standard" charging rate or the option to charge using the "battery saver" charging rate. In "battery saver", it will not charge beyond 85%, will not allow the car to run below 15%, and takes a full 7 to 8 hours to replenish that 70% operating range of charge.

Look, my opinion is my opinion. It's based however, on a myriad of scientific research from universities to battery manufacturers, to battery charger companies - the best known of all being Cadex (the company most trusted by first responders, military and the like). If I choose to baby my battery it's because I have personal experience with batteries in the past where my phone begins to die sooner and sooner during the day from a full charge in as little as 6 to 9 months. I'm not interested in buying a new phone every 6 to 9 months so I really need my battery to last and give me as close to new performance as I can squeeze out of it for as long as I can.

Others don't go through a full charge in one day, and so for them perhaps it's not a priority, and I respect their desire to use the charger that came with the phone "because it came with the phone". For them it may never reach a point where it starts dying toward the end of the day. And even if it does, the design is primarily to "boost" the charge quickly, so they can drop it on charge for 30 minutes and add 8 hours of talk time as advertised.

[emoji6]

 

[PereDroid]

Sorry, fox. Disagree with some of that. Mainly this:

"This IS how it was designed to be used, and in fact is how it's advertised. The advertisement says "It comes with a Turbo Charger—get up to eight hours of battery life in just 15 minutes†." It's not advertised as "Charge from 0%to 100% in 3 hours on your nightstand while you're sleeping for 8 hours"!"

A FEATURE of the phone was advertised. This is like advertising that your car comes equipped with BSA (blind spot assist) and Anti Lock Brakes.
It was advertised like everything is advertised "this is the greatest thing ever. In addition to being a phone it can do: this this this and this."

If it WAS designed to be used ONLY like you describe then Moto would have given us 2 chargers. One for overnight use and one for Turbo Charging.

Your hypothesis sounds good, and valid, but unproven as to this latest technology, if you want to get all scientificy. What is the temperature where degradation starts to occur? GSam, which may or may not be accurate, only ever showed me a 109 degree temp turbo charging.
How much degradation would you suppose is typical? 10%/year? I can deal with that. I can probably deal with more since the Turbo charger will blaze it up to close to full pretty fast.
I only need 2 years out of my phone.

I don't live my life in "what-ifs"? I live on the edge, I'm a wild man. (referencing a comedian here... GAH...can't remember his name. Anyone?)

"What if I am damaging my battery??"
I'll cross that bridge IF I come to it.
Hell, I could be dead tomorrow.

(Just debating and trying to be a bit funny, foxy, please don't be offended. Love ya', man)

 

[FoxKat]

Sorry, fox. Disagree with some of that. Mainly this:

"This IS how it was designed to be used, and in fact is how it's advertised. The advertisement says "It comes with a Turbo Charger—get up to eight hours of battery life in just 15 minutes†." It's not advertised as "Charge from 0%to 100% in 3 hours on your nightstand while you're sleeping for 8 hours"!"

A FEATURE of the phone was advertised. This is like advertising that your car comes equipped with BSA (blind spot assist) and Anti Lock Brakes.
It was advertised like everything is advertised "this is the greatest thing ever. In addition to being a phone it can do: this this this and this."

If it WAS designed to be used ONLY like you describe then Moto would have given us 2 chargers. One for overnight use and one for Turbo Charging.

Your hypothesis sounds good, and valid, but unproven as to this latest technology, if you want to get all scientificy. What is the temperature where degradation starts to occur? GSam, which may or may not be accurate, only ever showed me a 109 degree temp turbo charging.
How much degradation would you suppose is typical? 10%/year? I can deal with that. I can probably deal with more since the Turbo charger will blaze it up to close to full pretty fast.
I only need 2 years out of my phone.

I don't live my life in "what-ifs"? I live on the edge, I'm a wild man. (referencing a comedian here... GAH...can't remember his name. Anyone?)

"What if I am damaging my battery??"
I'll cross that bridge IF I come to it.
Hell, I could be dead tomorrow.

(Just debating and trying to be a bit funny, foxy, please don't be offended. Love ya', man)

Would never be offended by you. I know you too well. And frankly what you say is true, in that it wasn't designed to be used ONLY that way. But what I am saying is that was the PRIMARY marketing for the turbocharger.

As far as temperatures are concerned the interesting thing about battery temperature is that when the temperature is being heated up internally the external temperature of the battery won't likely ever reach the temperatures that the internal core will. Think of the anode as the point of the greatest concentration of heat similar to a heating element. It's that internal core where the anode sets, and it's the temperature at the surface of the anode that impacts the degradation of the battery long term.

So measuring external or surface battery temperature isn't going to be a good gauge when you're hitting the battery with high current and high voltage for short bursts to increase its charging rate as the turbocharger system does. It's quite different than if you were hitting it with a high current over a long period of time and consistently which in turn will allow the battery's entire body to heat up as well.

On a trickle charger or standard charger, the voltage and current are relatively consistent throughout the entire charging process, changing gradually from high to low and the current consumption is pretty much mandated by the battery in what it needs (room for charge capacity), and also by the current limiting circuit in what it will allow the battery to take. So using external battery temperature for a trick or standard charger is a relatively good indicator of what the internal core temperatures are since it has time to allow that temperature to conduct to the outer shell.

For example, once a battery reaches fully charged, it's still pulling about 3 milliampers of current. You would think that if it still pulling current there's room for additional charge but that's not the case because you have internal resistance which uses that current and basically causes the battery to get warm. It's that same resistance internally which causes the battery to get warm throughout the charging cycle, but it happens most prevalently at the higher currents and higher voltages.

This is why charging at higher rates both voltage and current cause damage to the battery long term. It's that higher voltage and current which creates greater conversion of power into heat while trying to push more towards charging. To minimize the damage to the anode, the higher currents and voltages aren't sent consistently over long periods of time but instead are sent in pulses or short bursts of high current and voltage followed by rest periods.

To compare, a good analogy might be to imagine holding on to the heating element on an electric stove and turning it on full high for a brief moment and then turning it back off again. You might burn your hand but maybe not the first time, and yet if you held your hand 6 inches above you might not feel but just a slight warmth. Now imagine doing that over and over with maybe 10 or 15 second pauses between.

Eventually that heating element would get hotter and hotter and the burns from holding it directly would be more and more severe, and yet still you wouldn't feel much heat 6 inches above. It would take quite a large number of those repetative bursts over a long duration before the rest of the stove would heat up, that element wouldn't cool much between bursts and you'd feel significant warmth at six inches above. Its that same concept that takes place at the anode level inside the battery. Your hand on the actual heating element represents the anode, and the six inches above represents the external battery temperature.

As for the expected degradation, 10 percent per year is probably realistic for a standard charger, and 29% total is considered end of life. As a matter of fact, manufacturers say the expected lifespan of these batteries is approximately two years when used and charged for approximately 300 to 500 complete charge cycles which would be using 100% of the current and then replacing 100% of the current. That might happen in less than a two year period with a heavy user. Someone who doesn't use their phone heavy may actually get even longer use out of a battery such as this.

The reason they give a range of 300 to 500 charging cycles is because just like described earlier, if you don't fully charge and fully discharge the battery, but instead replenish it with partial charges in the middle of the charging/discharging cycle you actually get a longer life span which equates to more charging cycles. So someone who doesn't use the phone till it dies and then put it on charge overnight will get perhaps the 500 cycles that are mentioned, whereas somebody who does use the phone till it drops dead and then charges it fully will most likely either reach for fall short of 300 cycles in the same time frame.

 

[jstafford1]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say the internal and external temp of a battery that's a few mm thick isn't going to be a whole lot different. The thickness or rather thinness of the battery is going to allow the heat to expand through it pretty easily and quickly. I'm no expert in thermodynamics but that just my experience with heat and metals would lead me to believe that.