Is the guy at Verizon right?

[wingdo]

It is not a good idea to use any phone with a Lithium Ion battery while they are plugged in for extended periods of time. This can cause a lot of stress on the battery and possibly wear down life. Of course its fine to use it for short periods of time like quick browsing, texting, and emails but i wouldnt recommend gaming.

Totally inaccurate. If that were true, you should not ever use a laptop while it is plugged in either.

 

[Skull One]

This is definitely reduce the lifespan of the battery. No doubt about it.

Is it safe to assume you didn't read what I have already posted on why your statement is incorrect and why it can't physically/chemically happen?

I mean I have only been doing this silly electronics stuff since 1985 and have read quite a bit on Lithium-Ion battery technology over the years. Would love to have you point me towards the data and articles that back up your "No doubt about it" statement. I love learning new things. Even when those things are 180 degrees out of phase with real world data.

Clearly you have not done your home work on the issue then.
If you regurarly use the phone while it is charging I assure you that your battery will not have as long a life as if you had not done this and let your battery drain down to 25% or so before recharging to 100%.

This is a very well known fact about lithium-Ion batteries.
I love when people think they know everything but in reality could not be further from it.

No links? No articles? Nothing from you to back up your statements. How very interesting. You say it is true, so it must be.

Hmm.... Let me help you out some then. Now would be a good time for you to pay very close attention. I am about to get really technical so you don't put your foot any further down your throat. Lets start with the baseline.

The question that started it all: "Does it hurt the battery if you keep the phone plugged in while using it?"

Answer: No it does not.

Reason: Lithium-Ion batteries operate from 2.5V to 4.2V. Droid based phones currently operate from 2.7V to 4.0V. They stop charging at 4.0 because at 4.05 to 4.2V the anode can start to oxide based on the amount of heat in the battery, current applied to the anode and voltage level of the battery above 4.04 volts.

Please read the following to confirm the basics: Charging lithium-ion batteries

Now that means the phone battery can NEVER reach the oxidation process. Which means it can NEVER hurt it. Why do they under charge you ask? To help limit WARRANTY returns. What a concept huh?

So again, provide real world information or please become very silent.

 

[Ag3nt X]

Clearly you have not done your home work on the issue then.
If you regurarly use the phone while it is charging I assure you that your battery will not have as long a life as if you had not done this and let your battery drain down to 25% or so before recharging to 100%.

This is a very well known fact about lithium-Ion batteries.
I love when people think they know everything but in reality could not be further from it.

I believe you are the one who has not done his homework. Both of those statements are incorrect.

The phone and not the charger control charging on the Droid 1. Period.

There is no memory effect on a Li-ion battery, memory effects take place in the software which gauges how much life is left in a Li-ion battery. This is why some people tell you to take the battery down to the point the device powers off. You do this to re-educate the software as to the high and low voltage points on the battery, not to make the battery itself more efficient.

Excuse me please point to where I said anything about "memory effect"!

Oh that's right I did not.

The bottom line here is that you will get a certain amount of recharges out of your battery. If you recharge when your battery is at 80% you will be losing battery life.

 

[hookbill]

This is definitely reduce the lifespan of the battery. No doubt about it.

Is it safe to assume you didn't read what I have already posted on why your statement is incorrect and why it can't physically/chemically happen?

I mean I have only been doing this silly electronics stuff since 1985 and have read quite a bit on Lithium-Ion battery technology over the years. Would love to have you point me towards the data and articles that back up your "No doubt about it" statement. I love learning new things. Even when those things are 180 degrees out of phase with real world data.

Clearly you have not done your home work on the issue then.
If you regurarly use the phone while it is charging I assure you that your battery will not have as long a life as if you had not done this and let your battery drain down to 25% or so before recharging to 100%.

This is a very well known fact about lithium-Ion batteries.
I love when people think they know everything but in reality could not be further from it.

If it's so well known then how come the vast majority of us who actually do have a clue disagree with you? I think questioning skull's knowledge on electronics is ludicrous. He's demonstrated time and time again that when it comes to electronics he knows what he's talking about.

I hate to say this, but you ARE supposed to remove a LiION battery from a device that is running on AC power. It's bad for a LiION battery to be run fully charged at a high temperature, which is exactly what happens when you leave the battery in while running on AC.

Here's a good link about proper care of LiION batteries. Contrary to popular belief, you DO have to excercise a certain amount of care to prolong lifespan:

How to prolong lithium-based batteries

And here is where good information is applied improperly to a situation and makes it bad information for the subject at hand.

First and foremost that particular article was written for laptop batteries and their charging systems. Which differs greatly from cell phones and how they are setup.

Lets break down some significant differences between the two.

1) Cell phone's battery charging systems switch to trickle charge mode no later than 4.00 Volts. 4.01 volts is considered fully charged.

But wait! The article says "4.2V" is fully charged. And they are 100% correct, but cell phone makers know you will leave the phone plugged in over night and that can be for as long as 16 hours for some people.

So why do they go into trickle charge at .2 volts to soon? To protect the anode from oxidation which causes resistance in both the discharge and charging situations. Plus they don't want the battery to fail prior to the warranty expiring.

If you want to have fun, read up on "Bump Charging" for cell phones if you want to understand why the charging circuits are designed to kick in to trickle charge earlier than 4.2V. And how bump charging can get around that and give you "Extra power!" at the cost of battery longevity.

2) The trickle charge mode isn't high enough to sustain a full charge if you are truly putting a load on the phone.

If you care to test that fact, put your phone into GPS mode while using 3G to retrieve the mapping data. And if you really want to see something neat, turn Pandora or a similar program like that on at that same time and watch the charger not be able to keep up when it switches back to full charging mode. Some car charges use lower currents and can't keep up.

3) Cell phone batteries are smaller than laptop batteries.

Li-Ion batteries can reach "Thermal Runaway", a form of self heating, at temps as low as 140F. But if you read every word in the article it talks about temps of 113F. There is a HUGE reason for the difference in temps and warning about them. Cell phone batteries can dissipate heat faster than laptop batteries by a factor of, lets go with 20 to 1 (it is probably much higher). Why is the difference that high? Surface area exposed to cooler air. Laptop batteries simply can't dissipate the heat fast enough. So they have to start worrying about heat build up long before cell phones do. That and the fact that they go to the FULL 4.2V charging spec. Which is the danger zone for oxidation of the anode.


So in short the article is 100% correct for a Li-Ion battery of large mass being charged to the full 4.2V specification.

Cell phone batteries don't meet either condition. Not by a long shot.

Just to show you I saw your post with this article. I have quoted it.

If you care to test that fact, put your phone into GPS mode while using 3G to retrieve the mapping data. And if you really want to see something neat, turn Pandora or a similar program like that on at that same time and watch the charger not be able to keep up when it switches back to full charging mode. Some car charges use lower currents and can't keep up.

And this comment is rather funny. I am not even going to bother to tell you how screwed up this commnet is but you can feel free to let us all know when you figure it out.

I don't recall seeing any significant posts you've ever made to demonstrate a knowledge in this area, and you've offered absolutely no logical argument to what Skull showed as proof as to how lithium batteries work.

Usually when someone says the comment is so funny they aren't going to tell you what's wrong with it that means they don't know the answer themselves.

 

[Ag3nt X]

Is it safe to assume you didn't read what I have already posted on why your statement is incorrect and why it can't physically/chemically happen?

I mean I have only been doing this silly electronics stuff since 1985 and have read quite a bit on Lithium-Ion battery technology over the years. Would love to have you point me towards the data and articles that back up your "No doubt about it" statement. I love learning new things. Even when those things are 180 degrees out of phase with real world data.

Clearly you have not done your home work on the issue then.
If you regurarly use the phone while it is charging I assure you that your battery will not have as long a life as if you had not done this and let your battery drain down to 25% or so before recharging to 100%.

This is a very well known fact about lithium-Ion batteries.
I love when people think they know everything but in reality could not be further from it.

No links? No articles? Nothing from you to back up your statements. How very interesting. You say it is true, so it must be.

Hmm.... Let me help you out some then. Now would be a good time for you to pay very close attention. I am about to get really technical so you don't put your foot any further down your throat. Lets start with the baseline.

The question that started it all: "Does it hurt the battery if you keep the phone plugged in while using it?"

Answer: No it does not.

Reason: Lithium-Ion batteries operate from 2.5V to 4.2V. Droid based phones currently operate from 2.7V to 4.0V. They stop charging at 4.0 because at 4.05 to 4.2V the anode can start to oxide based on the amount of heat in the battery, current applied to the anode and voltage level of the battery above 4.04 volts.

Please read the following to confirm the basics: Charging lithium-ion batteries

Now that means the phone battery can NEVER reach the oxidation process. Which means it can NEVER hurt it. Why do they under charge you ask? To help limit WARRANTY returns. What a concept huh?

So again, provide real world information or please become very silent.

Ha ha ha ha..... If you get the battery hot enough (by using and charging it simultaneously the oxidation process can be reached.) Clearly you don't know what Heat can do to electronics and chemicals.

 

[Martin030908]

thanks for clarification skull one.

EDIT: personal attacks will not be tolerated. discuss civilly the topic at hand.

 

[Skull One]

Wrong answer. The car dock has the ability to control the charging feature. Plugging in to a wall you do not have this ability.

Please show me where it is documented that the Car Dock charging system differs from the wall outlet charger. This should be a fascinating read all things considered on how the Droid series of phones currently charge themselves. Especially since the charger doesn't control anything, the phone does.

Tell you what there mr know it all...... Why don't you from this point forward try charging your phone only by your vehicle ( according to you this is the best method seeing as how it does it with less "current")
Go for it charge your phone only with your vehicle. We will be waiting for you to begin whining about your battery not holding a charge.

I won't have that issue. Here is why:

The issue you are complaining about is due to the phone's batterystats.bin profile becoming biased to the lower voltage charge data and discharge cycle. If you wish to avoid that issue, erase /data/system/batterystats.bin about once a week.

Nice try though. Some of us actually know how the Android OS works, how the charging system is used by the OS and where the files are maintained in case something goes wrong.

 

[wingdo]

Tell you what there mr know it all...... .

Mr Know it All is an EE, whilst it appears you got your degree from Battery University. Skull is totally correct on this (oh wait I'm an EE as well, guess that makes me useless for silly things like this), and the OP is best served to listen to Skull's advice.

 

[hookbill]

Let's not resort to insults here. Keep it civil.

 

[Ag3nt X]

Is it safe to assume you didn't read what I have already posted on why your statement is incorrect and why it can't physically/chemically happen?

I mean I have only been doing this silly electronics stuff since 1985 and have read quite a bit on Lithium-Ion battery technology over the years. Would love to have you point me towards the data and articles that back up your "No doubt about it" statement. I love learning new things. Even when those things are 180 degrees out of phase with real world data.

Clearly you have not done your home work on the issue then.
If you regurarly use the phone while it is charging I assure you that your battery will not have as long a life as if you had not done this and let your battery drain down to 25% or so before recharging to 100%.

This is a very well known fact about lithium-Ion batteries.
I love when people think they know everything but in reality could not be further from it.

If it's so well known then how come the vast majority of us who actually do have a clue disagree with you? I think questioning skull's knowledge on electronics is ludicrous. He's demonstrated time and time again that when it comes to electronics he knows what he's talking about.

Just to show you I saw your post with this article. I have quoted it.

If you care to test that fact, put your phone into GPS mode while using 3G to retrieve the mapping data. And if you really want to see something neat, turn Pandora or a similar program like that on at that same time and watch the charger not be able to keep up when it switches back to full charging mode. Some car charges use lower currents and can't keep up.

And this comment is rather funny. I am not even going to bother to tell you how screwed up this commnet is but you can feel free to let us all know when you figure it out.

I don't recall seeing any significant posts you've ever made to demonstrate a knowledge in this area, and you've offered absolutely no logical argument to what Skull showed as proof as to how lithium batteries work.

Usually when someone says the comment is so funny they aren't going to tell you what's wrong with it that means they don't know the answer themselves.

The answer? LOL sorry Bill. But vehicle chargers do not trickle charge they fast charge the battery and this type of charging is not the preferred method of charging.

Fact if you use your vehicle to charge your battery on a daily basis your battery life is going to be much less then if you use a wall outlet.


But to hear mr know it all tell it the vehicle charge actually trickle charges. Talk about 180 out.... Wow just wow out of phase skull is.

 

[Bilgediver]

Clearly you have not done your home work on the issue then.
If you regurarly use the phone while it is charging I assure you that your battery will not have as long a life as if you had not done this and let your battery drain down to 25% or so before recharging to 100%.

This is a very well known fact about lithium-Ion batteries.
I love when people think they know everything but in reality could not be further from it.

I believe you are the one who has not done his homework. Both of those statements are incorrect.

The phone and not the charger control charging on the Droid 1. Period.

There is no memory effect on a Li-ion battery, memory effects take place in the software which gauges how much life is left in a Li-ion battery. This is why some people tell you to take the battery down to the point the device powers off. You do this to re-educate the software as to the high and low voltage points on the battery, not to make the battery itself more efficient.

+1


Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using DroidForums App

 

[Ag3nt X]

Tell you what there mr know it all...... .

Mr Know it All is an EE, whilst it appears you got your degree from Battery University. Skull is totally correct on this (oh wait I'm an EE as well, guess that makes me useless for silly things like this), and the OP is best served to listen to Skull's advice.

No Skull is not correct. When you use the device and you charge it at the same time the battery gets hotter then normal. The simple process of heating the battery will cause the battery life to decrease.

TO do this a few times for very short periods of time might be fine. But if you do this on a regular basis you will experience a shortened battery life.

 

[wingdo]

Won't hurt your battery......
they wouldn't have made the Car Dock if it was going to be a problem. the GPS navigation is as intensive as Gaming. and that is keeping your phone plugged in.

Wrong answer. The car dock has the ability to control the charging feature. Plugging in to a wall you do not have this ability.

The "car dock" for the D1 does nothing as it is just a piece of plastic. You plug an Automobile USB charger into the standard micro USB slot.

The *phone* is what controls the charging.

 

[Bilgediver]

It would depend on the temperature you reach. Battery life degrades above certain temperatures. Read Skulls overclocking thread about battery temperatures, he goes into good detail.

I have my Droid2global underclocking when I'm charging it so when I use it I don't have to worry, plus it shoukd charge a tiny bit faster due to less power going to the phone.

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using DroidForums App

 

[Ag3nt X]

Please show me where it is documented that the Car Dock charging system differs from the wall outlet charger. This should be a fascinating read all things considered on how the Droid series of phones currently charge themselves. Especially since the charger doesn't control anything, the phone does.

Tell you what there mr know it all...... Why don't you from this point forward try charging your phone only by your vehicle ( according to you this is the best method seeing as how it does it with less "current")
Go for it charge your phone only with your vehicle. We will be waiting for you to begin whining about your battery not holding a charge.

I won't have that issue. Here is why:

The issue you are complaining about is due to the phone's batterystats.bin profile becoming biased to the lower voltage charge data and discharge cycle. If you wish to avoid that issue, erase /data/system/batterystats.bin about once a week.

Nice try though. Some of us actually know how the Android OS works, how the charging system is used by the OS and where the files are maintained in case something goes wrong.

I thought we were talking about battery life and not . bin files.. The .bin files are completely irrelevant here.


I am not complaining of any issue.

Your LI-on Battery is only going to accept a certain amount of charges. If you recharge it every time it gets to 80% vise letting the battery get to 25% you are going to lose hella battery life.

The Lithium-Ion battery's normal life cycle is what it is.


"Battery experts agree that the life of lithium-ion depends on other factors than charge and discharge rates. Even though incremental improvements can be achieved with careful use of the battery, our environment and the services required are not always conducive to achieve optimal battery life. The longevity of a battery is often a direct result of the environmental stresses applied."

Heating the battery up on a regular basis is most definitely one of the worst environmental stressors the battery can endour.


OK Skull lets see your ground breaking scientific data that claims that heating a battery up is actually good for it!