DroidForums.net & Ultimate Droid ROMs

[TimChgo9]

The other issue at hand here, is "ownership" if you will, of intellectual property, since Android is open source, no one can claim to creating the OS, just their modification of it, which is fine, it is still intellectual property. Now, I understand that Linux is shared openly, and many developers exchanged ideas and code with one another, etc .etc. Nonetheless, credit needs to be given where credit is due. Egos play into the developer community as much as they do in any community of artists. I spend much of my time dealing with artists, as I am a photographer (amateur to be sure, but a good one nonetheless) I know how artists get possessive of what they create. Programming is no different, in my opinion. Creating some of things that I have seen on this site takes some time, and effort, and not just a little creativity. When anyone works hard to create something, and then allows it to be used by others, giving credit and acknowledgment for the elements that were used is simply common courtesy.

I had a similar thing happen to me, and I see it on the photo site I adminsiter all of the time. We have a large and active Photoshop community within our site, some people like to take the work of others, and use it in their own creations, 99% percent of the time, the Photoshopper askes permission of the owner of the content they wish to use, and 99% of the time, permission is granted, and when the final work is posted, credit is given for the elements used. Someone took one of my photos, and photoshopped it, and posted it as their own work, when it was clear to many members that he had taken one of my photos, and used it. The hue and cry about giving credit was rather loud, and this person, didn't acknowledge what he had done, and the results were similar to what happened here.

Give credit where credit is due, as far as I am concerned, taking someone else's work, and calling it one's own, even if modified, is about as low as a person can get. It shows a lack of integrity, and honesty, and probably even a lack of confidence in one's own skills. In the photography community I belong to, the number one rule is "Give credit when using another's work", those who break it are quickly marginalized, and looked upon as a pariah, unless they correct it. It's not "stroking egos" it is simple courtesy, and honesty, to acknowledge those elements that helped make the final creation possible. Asking permission to use is another big thing too...there is nothing worse than finding that something you created is up for sale on a website by someone else, claiming it is their work. Trust me, it's not fun, and it's a big hassle as well.

 

[Dave12308]

Ok, here's a thought. After modding your phone to specs that void warranty, did you call in and request your warranty be voided because of what you did? Or are you allowing it to continue, just in case something goes wrong? Doesn't that seem like a lead into an unethical act? Hasn't happened yet, but the intent is there, which to me is still unethical. I can bet at the very second a mod project goes wrong, you'd flash it back to stock settings and say "I don't know what happened, I just woke up to it like this". It's not an unreasonable thought, but that doesn't excuse it from being wrong. So I guess my point actually lied a few levels past just modding voiding the warranty.

See, the thing is; your warranty is voided the second you mod the device. This is implied. Yes, it does rely on the honor system; since in all honesty the minute you've modded your phone your warranty is kaput and you should not even THINK of seeking warranty service.

I can only speak for myself, but I would only use the SBF file as a safety net in my own modding endeavours; never would I use it to make it look like i'd never modded. That's what my insurance is for. If I brick it, I will file a claim with Asurion, admit that I bricked it, and cough up the $85 deductible for a refurb. While some may argue that even this is unethical, that is what a TEC insurance policy is for.

 

[DawsonMobley]

The other issue at hand here, is "ownership" if you will, of intellectual property, since Android is open source, no one can claim to creating the OS, just their modification of it, which is fine, it is still intellectual property. Now, I understand that Linux is shared openly, and many developers exchanged ideas and code with one another, etc .etc. Nonetheless, credit needs to be given where credit is due. Egos play into the developer community as much as they do in any community of artists. I spend much of my time dealing with artists, as I am a photographer (amateur to be sure, but a good one nonetheless) I know how artists get possessive of what they create. Programming is no different, in my opinion. Creating some of things that I have seen on this site takes some time, and effort, and not just a little creativity. When anyone works hard to create something, and then allows it to be used by others, giving credit and acknowledgment for the elements that were used is simply common courtesy.

I had a similar thing happen to me, and I see it on the photo site I adminsiter all of the time. We have a large and active Photoshop community within our site, some people like to take the work of others, and use it in their own creations, 99% percent of the time, the Photoshopper askes permission of the owner of the content they wish to use, and 99% of the time, permission is granted, and when the final work is posted, credit is given for the elements used. Someone took one of my photos, and photoshopped it, and posted it as their own work, when it was clear to many members that he had taken one of my photos, and used it. The hue and cry about giving credit was rather loud, and this person, didn't acknowledge what he had done, and the results were similar to what happened here.

Give credit where credit is due, as far as I am concerned, taking someone else's work, and calling it one's own, even if modified, is about as low as a person can get. It shows a lack of integrity, and honesty, and probably even a lack of confidence in one's own skills. In the photography community I belong to, the number one rule is "Give credit when using another's work", those who break it are quickly marginalized, and looked upon as a pariah, unless they correct it. It's not "stroking egos" it is simple courtesy, and honesty, to acknowledge those elements that helped make the final creation possible. Asking permission to use is another big thing too...there is nothing worse than finding that something you created is up for sale on a website by someone else, claiming it is their work. Trust me, it's not fun, and it's a big hassle as well.

well said

 

[cesareborgia]

Funny how people can find integrity issues within a community that is hacking in the first place. Obviously if you really cared about integrity, you wouldn't root or mod your phones in the first place, since it is a warranty voider.

When you purchase a phone, it now becomes yours. Your property, to do with what you please.

If I choose to throw my phone on the ground and smash it to millions of bits, I am certainly voiding my warranty, my act however is not un-ethical. Just because it is hacking, does not mean that it is not ethical.

Rooting your phone has nothing to do with integrity at all. It has to do with modifying something you have purchased, to better fit your own needs or desires. When people modify their cars for example, they are certainly voiding aspects of their warranty, yet it is not un-ethical.

You cannot make the argument that what BD did was "okay" by stating that people who root their phones are not ethical. Reducing the ethical status of one group does not elevate what BD has done. And just so you understand, hacking is not wrong or bad, your perception of hacking is. Hacking is the age old art of figuring out how things work. I copied this from DOC DROPPERS!. It is a fairly good definition of what hacking is.

hacker n. [originally, someone who makes furniture with an axe]

1. A person who enjoys exploring the details of programmable systems and how to stretch their capabilities, as opposed to most users, who prefer to learn only the minimum necessary.
2. One who programs enthusiastically (even obsessively) or who enjoys programming rather than just theorizing about programming.
3. A person capable of appreciating hack value.
4. A person who is good at programming quickly.
5. An expert at a particular program, or one who frequently does work using it or on it; as in "a Unix hacker". (Definitions 1 through 5 are correlated, and people who fit them congregate.)
6. An expert or enthusiast of any kind. One might be an astronomy hacker, for example.
7. One who enjoys the intellectual challenge of creatively overcoming or circumventing limitations.
8. [deprecated] A malicious meddler who tries to discover sensitive information by poking around. Hence "password hacker", "network hacker". The correct term for this sense is cracker.

Just out of curiosity, have you rooted your own phone?

I think everyone is in agreement that what BD did was wrong. If he just coped to it, and didn't attempt to use the "Bill Clinton" defense it probably would have blown over. But it seems that in some cases, the most fragile thing in the entire world to some people are their ego's. They would rather sacrifice their integrity to satisfy their ego.

Ok, here's a thought. After modding your phone to specs that void warranty, did you call in and request your warranty be voided because of what you did? Or are you allowing it to continue, just in case something goes wrong? Doesn't that seem like a lead into an unethical act? Hasn't happened yet, but the intent is there, which to me is still unethical. I can bet at the very second a mod project goes wrong, you'd flash it back to stock settings and say "I don't know what happened, I just woke up to it like this". It's not an unreasonable thought, but that doesn't excuse it from being wrong. So I guess my point actually lied a few levels past just modding voiding the warranty.

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to excuse anyone from their offenses. But from my point of view the ethics stretch a little further than just those that "hackers" or whoever in the community deem relevant. Now I'm sure that within your community outsiders' views of the ethics mean nothing, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist and aren't relevant. I think i'm just looking deeper into this than is necessary, that's just the way I am.

Uhmm, if you are so "ethical" why are you modding your own phone, why are you using UD, why are you on these boards? Do you also stand in the middle of a glass house with a fully automatic machine gun, reloading and making sure you shoot out every tiny bit of glass from the frames?

If you take what we all do here and inject it into different social groups or circles, different religions, different cultures, different countries, different languages, etc etc etc you are going to get different "ethical" responses from each. What BD did was wrong, if you stretch this out far enough we can paint Motorola, Google and everyone that has ever created any electronic device as being un-ethical.

But still you never seem to have grasped my point. What BD did is wrong. You cannot elevate his un-ethical act by labeling everyone else as being un-ethical. You can choose to use his version of Cyanogen or not. I don't think it matters what ROM you are using or how your phone is modded, we can all agree that the entire BD drama has been one long trip down 100 miles of bad desert road called UN-ETHICAL.

I am starting to wonder if maybe you are not BD himself, you seem to display the same exact "I am not wrong" mentality as he does. It would be better if you just take a big swallow of chill, admit that what BD did was not ethical and move on. Hell, we might even allow you to play in all the Reindeer games, hold hands and sing kumbaya around the camp fire.

 

[Pretty Boy Droid]

A lot of people myself included have posted comments on integrity and ethics concerning what BD did, but lets not forget cyanogen and koush along with their fans are not saints with the way they totally disrupted this forum. I am equally disappointed in the way they handled this situation.

 

[jroc]

Just like someones point of view of a 'hacker' is can be different than the next man, so can integrity and ethics.All I'm saying is take your rooted phone to Verizon and ask them what they think. Again, their view is gonna be different than yours.

 

[jroc]

cesar, the thing is, its not about claiming to be the most righteous man. But dont try to use integrity and ethics in this whole deal when ALL this can be considered suspect by other ppl. (Verizon, Motorola, HTC, etc)

 

[Pretty Boy Droid]

Just like someones point of view of a 'hacker' is can be different than the next man, so can integrity and ethics.All I'm saying is take your rooted phone to Verizon and ask them what they think. Again, their view is gonna be different than yours.

You should not have to ask because if you have rooted your phone you should already know what their view on the matter is and if you don't and are not prepared to face the consequences you probably should not be rooting in the first place.

 

[cesareborgia]

cesar, the thing is, its not about claiming to be the most righteous man. But dont try to use integrity and ethics in this whole deal when ALL this can be considered suspect by other ppl. (Verizon, Motorola, HTC, etc)

It's really simple, what BD is wrong, by anyone's standard. Trying to argue that he is less wrong by saying everyone else is wrong, is a fallacy.

 

[jroc]

Call it like it really is "honor amongst thieves". If u noticed I mentioned a few times about there not being all this drama with modded Windows OS's. That should tell u what I think about integrity ot ethics.... or where I stand.

What he did was wrong. Fine. But to go to the magnitude that it went? No fine. Then ppl using ethics n integrity? Not fine. Hell, Cyanogen, koush coulda decompiled UD 10 first, THEN went to BD saying: "Look man either u gives us credit for this n that or we gonna put on blast"

All in Private Message. Then tell him if u gonna keep trying to do this we just gonna put u on blast. All in Private Message. If BD didnt comply, then its on.

 

[cesareborgia]

Just like someones point of view of a 'hacker' is can be different than the next man, so can integrity and ethics.All I'm saying is take your rooted phone to Verizon and ask them what they think. Again, their view is gonna be different than yours.

I am not so sure that an employee at Verizon is going to have a different view than me. I know that I am voiding my warranty, they would probably tell me the same exact thing. But what they are not going to do is say that I am un-ethical, hell they probably have a rooted droid too, probably did it at work when there were no customers.

The more people that try to call into question other people's ethics, the more blaring and obvious it makes BDs actions. There is a real easy way to stop any discussion about this entire mess. BD should just come clean, all this will go away.

 

[mth04]

Call it like it really is "honor amongst thieves". If u noticed I mentioned a few times about there not being all this drama with modded Windows OS's. That should tell u what I think about integrity ot ethics.... or where I stand.

What he did was wrong. Fine. But to go to the magnitude that it went? No fine. Then ppl using ethics n integrity? Not fine. Hell, Cyanogen, koush coulda decompiled UD 10 first, THEN went to BD saying: "Look man either u gives us credit for this n that or we gonna put on blast"

All in Private Message. Then tell him if u gonna keep trying to do this we just gonna put u on blast. All in Private Message. If BD didnt comply, then its on.

Let me say this. Had they come to me with it decompiled there wouldnt have been a big mess. I would ave pulled the links and locked the section. There was no reason or excuse for thier behavior either. That isnt bashing. I agree all parties involved were wrong. Bd is no longer supported here becuase of what he did. End result was the same but we could have had a cleaner way to go about it.

 

[mth04]

Just like someones point of view of a 'hacker' is can be different than the next man, so can integrity and ethics.All I'm saying is take your rooted phone to Verizon and ask them what they think. Again, their view is gonna be different than yours.

I am not so sure that an employee at Verizon is going to have a different view than me. I know that I am voiding my warranty, they would probably tell me the same exact thing. But what they are not going to do is say that I am un-ethical, hell they probably have a rooted droid too, probably did it at work when there were no customers.

The more people that try to call into question other people's ethics, the more blaring and obvious it makes BDs actions. There is a real easy way to stop any discussion about this entire mess. BD should just come clean, all this will go away.

but it needs to be real and from him,,,,,,,,

 

[jroc]

An employee at Verizon vs. what I read in the company's TOS. Not the same thing. If a company like Verizon lumps in modification with stealing from them, , spamming, etc,.again its their view vs. yours.

 

[cesareborgia]

Call it like it really is "honor amongst thieves". If u noticed I mentioned a few times about there not being all this drama with modded Windows OS's. That should tell u what I think about integrity ot ethics.... or where I stand.

What he did was wrong. Fine. But to go to the magnitude that it went? No fine. Then ppl using ethics n integrity? Not fine. Hell, Cyanogen, koush coulda decompiled UD 10 first, THEN went to BD saying: "Look man either u gives us credit for this n that or we gonna put on blast"

All in Private Message. Then tell him if u gonna keep trying to do this we just gonna put u on blast. All in Private Message. If BD didnt comply, then its on.

I see, keep it all nice and silent, pretend that he wasn't trying to claim it was his, give him the chance to give credit so he can get away with ripping other people off. What would prevent him from doing the same thing next time? From trying to get away with it until he was caught. And I cannot blame the people who he ripped off, you would be pissed off too if someone claimed your work was there's. It didn't stop him on the other forums he was kicked off. Maybe the only way he is going to learn is if he is put on blast, right away, every time. People in this counter culture will eventually realize that to rip other people off will result in being exposed. This is how the "hacker" culture has always responded to people who lie, who steal, who pretend to be something they so painfully and obviously are not.