What the? I did take it to PM and you decided to bring it back here...
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A Plan For A Brighter Android Future
- Thread starter WugFresh
- Start date
What the? I did take it to PM and you decided to bring it back here...
Your plan is essentially "Hey carriers, we don't like the TOS that you came up with and we want a new one. We've violated the current one knowingly for the last two years, and it's about time that you guys start catering to us now"
100% it is obvious that you are good at understanding anything I have said. That is my plan exactly. In fact, I am going to ditch the IMC and just call up verizon and say exactly that. You nailed it czerdrill. Or should I say, you drilled it.
{{ WugFresh }}
Your plan is essentially "Hey carriers, we don't like the TOS that you came up with and we want a new one. We've violated the current one knowingly for the last two years, and it's about time that you guys start catering to us now"
100% it is obvious that you are good at understanding anything I have said. That is my plan exactly. In fact, I am going to ditch the IMC and just call up verizon and say exactly that. You nailed it czerdrill. Or should I say, you drilled it.
{{ WugFresh }}
lol. you can't deny it though right? you're asking for criticism and I'm giving it to you, but the only time you accept any feedback is if someone agrees with you. I'm using logic, market history and common sense to tell you why your plan won't work, and you're ignoring every aspect of it. you're wasting your time, completely, by pursuing a plan like this. Obviously, I can't stop you, since you seem dead set on stopping yourself but you can't deny what I'm saying. By your own admission, tether-ers took advantage of a loophole to steal service, and now you want the carriers to rewrite their policies to allow people to tether without paying extra again?
They have a system that works, and they have a solution that can work (you root, you lose warranty, you tether you pay, no extra overhead, no need to rewrite policies, no need to hire extra staff). But you seem to think that they're going to forego their already working system to create a new one that will cost them millions more to implement and will end up causing a bigger mess then it is now. That's what I don't understand. The holes in your plan are not tiny holes, they're huge. No carrier on the planet would agree to something like this, and I'm trying to help you see that. But instead, you think I'm here to derail your plan. The truth of the matter is it's already derailed.
boristhebladexx
Member
- When you get your totally amazing fully unlocked android device, it’s actually not unlocked at all in fact it’s locked down like Fort Knox.
- On your device there will be an app called “Unlock” which requires the user to enter a public key which they will either get by calling up their service provider, getting it emailed to them… Or maybe it just comes in the box with your phone.
- Before you enter this public key into the Unlock app you are on a 15 day (or maybe 30?) full hardware replacement warranty.
- The second you enter the unlock key, you are prompted with the new TOS which makes your old 15 day full warranty null and void and starts the new developer warranty agreement which is something I have yet to fully develop (probably some repair fee or something...)
that range is for all android devices in the US, not all need to visit forums, lurk in forums, or register in forums. In fact I would bet that most don't, they see what they need and leave.
Sure, there are some lurkers here and there, but most people are simply not technically inclined to root and maintain their phones without major help. I doubt there are enough lurkers to bring the number up to 30%, let alone higher than that. This just isn't sensible.
I'm not going to argue with you over the # as you have no way of knowing jack crap. Having said that, i've rooted over 100 phones for people who don't visit forums, I know they don't but they wanted a particular theme or application. They are happy with that, and never do anything else to their phone.
Which also means that after you are done rooting/theming their phones, they are completely done altering that process because they can't (as alluded to before) maintain their rooted phone without help. What does this mean? It means that they are absolutely no threat to the carriers in terms of tethering use and warranty fraud, because they had a technical expert (yourself) perform the process and then they never tinker again. For all intents and purposes, their phones could have come this way from the manufacturer themselves.
I may not know jack crap, but I know logic and common sense (and I have an educational background in finance, accounting & law). Sometimes common sense isn't given enough weight on the internet. Insider information is good, but it isn't the holy grail without proper interpretation and analysis of said info.
I don't necessarily agree with czerdrill that there is no way that carriers will attempt to reform their current business practices. They are doing it all the time. They are doing it as we speak. Unlimited data worked for a long time... it's on borrowed time now. 1-year contracts worked before, they may be gone soon. The list goes on. When the market changes--and it is changing--carriers have to adapt to it. Android presents a unique problem to carriers/manufacturers while at the same time presenting a huge boon to business because of it's rapidly growing success. There is a window for reform of current policies, there is just no guarantee that it will happen or happen the way we want it to. That doesn't mean people of proper motivation and initiative cannot try.
Brandon
Last edited:
that range is for all android devices in the US, not all need to visit forums, lurk in forums, or register in forums. In fact I would bet that most don't, they see what they need and leave.
Sure, there are some lurkers here and there, but most people are simply not technically inclined to root and maintain their phones without major help. I doubt there are enough lurkers to bring the number up to 30%, let alone higher than that. This just isn't sensible.
I'm not going to argue with you over the # as you have no way of knowing jack crap. Having said that, i've rooted over 100 phones for people who don't visit forums, I know they don't but they wanted a particular theme or application. They are happy with that, and never do anything else to their phone.
Which also means that after you are done rooting/theming their phones, they are completely done altering that process because they can't (as alluded to before) maintain their rooted phone without help. What does this mean? It means that they are absolutely no threat to the carriers in terms of tethering use and warranty fraud, because they had a technical expert (yourself) perform the process and then they never tinker again. For all intents and purposes, their phones could have come this way from the manufacturer themselves.
I may not know jack crap, but I know logic and common sense (and I have an educational background in finance, accounting & law). Sometimes common sense isn't given enough weight on the internet. Insider information is good, but it isn't the holy grail without proper interpretation and analysis of said info.
Brandon
Thank you and +1.
bplewis just saw your edits and would like to comment on that as well:
For the record, I did not say that they will never change their business practices. What I did say, and still say, is there is no way they will change it so that they're losing money. This plan, offered by Wug, makes them lose money no matter how you look at it. If his plan is to turn 1% into 50% clearly that's not going to happen. People don't care about rooting and ROMing.
If his plan is to turn 1% into 10%, I still don't see that happening. If his plan is to turn 1% into 5% ok, maybe through some stretch of the imagination that may happen (I highly doubt it though). At that point, Verizon bleeds money. Because now they have to train their employees to answer the questions of a whole new subset of users. People call Verizon when they cant figure out how to attach their phone to the computer, you better believe they'll be calling when they can't figure out how to root. This plan doesn't benefit any carrier in anyway.
The examples you gave of changes that happened all have one thing in common. The changes were or are being implemented to save verizon money. And that's what's going to drive them. They're not going to invest millions into something that will ultimately end up costing them more then what their current setup is.
And yes, everyone has the right to try. But like you said common sense loses its weight on the internet. I can try to fly by myself, and I can try to outrun my pet dog, but common sense would tell me that's not going to happen. This plan is an example of something that's just not going to happen, because its not economically or technologically feasible for any carrier to implement. But yes...Wug...you can try. And clearly you plan to. And I have enough respect for you to know that when you fail you'll say you failed and wont try to make some other excuse.
I don't necessarily agree with czerdrill that there is no way that carriers will attempt to reform their current business practices. They are doing it all the time. They are doing it as we speak. Unlimited data worked for a long time... it's on borrowed time now. 1-year contracts worked before, they may be gone soon. The list goes on. When the market changes--and it is changing--carriers have to adapt to it. Android presents a unique problem to carriers/manufacturers while at the same time presenting a huge boon to business because of it's rapidly growing success. There is a window for reform of current policies, there is just no guarantee that it will happen or happen the way we want it to. That doesn't mean people of proper motivation and initiative cannot try.
For the record, I did not say that they will never change their business practices. What I did say, and still say, is there is no way they will change it so that they're losing money. This plan, offered by Wug, makes them lose money no matter how you look at it. If his plan is to turn 1% into 50% clearly that's not going to happen. People don't care about rooting and ROMing.
If his plan is to turn 1% into 10%, I still don't see that happening. If his plan is to turn 1% into 5% ok, maybe through some stretch of the imagination that may happen (I highly doubt it though). At that point, Verizon bleeds money. Because now they have to train their employees to answer the questions of a whole new subset of users. People call Verizon when they cant figure out how to attach their phone to the computer, you better believe they'll be calling when they can't figure out how to root. This plan doesn't benefit any carrier in anyway.
The examples you gave of changes that happened all have one thing in common. The changes were or are being implemented to save verizon money. And that's what's going to drive them. They're not going to invest millions into something that will ultimately end up costing them more then what their current setup is.
And yes, everyone has the right to try. But like you said common sense loses its weight on the internet. I can try to fly by myself, and I can try to outrun my pet dog, but common sense would tell me that's not going to happen. This plan is an example of something that's just not going to happen, because its not economically or technologically feasible for any carrier to implement. But yes...Wug...you can try. And clearly you plan to. And I have enough respect for you to know that when you fail you'll say you failed and wont try to make some other excuse.
bplewis just saw your edits and would like to comment on that as well:
I don't necessarily agree with czerdrill that there is no way that carriers will attempt to reform their current business practices. They are doing it all the time. They are doing it as we speak. Unlimited data worked for a long time... it's on borrowed time now. 1-year contracts worked before, they may be gone soon. The list goes on. When the market changes--and it is changing--carriers have to adapt to it. Android presents a unique problem to carriers/manufacturers while at the same time presenting a huge boon to business because of it's rapidly growing success. There is a window for reform of current policies, there is just no guarantee that it will happen or happen the way we want it to. That doesn't mean people of proper motivation and initiative cannot try.
For the record, I did not say that they will never change their business practices. What I did say, and still say, is there is no way they will change it so that they're losing money. This plan, offered by Wug, makes them lose money no matter how you look at it.
Thanks for your input. I haven't had a chance to read through the entire thread and I've only gotten through about 2/3rds of the original post, so I can't really offer any other input or feedback. In general, I would agree that no corporation is going to implement something that loses them money unless it somehow makes them money down the road.
If I get a chance to read through the entire thread, I'll chime in further.
Brandon
Honestly, look at any board's online count. The guest/member ratio is ridiculous. Right now there are 1400 members and 15000 guests. It's very likely p3's numbers are accurate. The fact is, following the directions for this stuff is a snap. Any problem you're likely to have, someone has already had it asked and answered.
I don't delude myself into thinking rooting or performing most of the widely implemented alterations done to these phones requires that much brain power. Middle school kids can do this stuff if they decide they want to and know how to use the search button.
I don't delude myself into thinking rooting or performing most of the widely implemented alterations done to these phones requires that much brain power. Middle school kids can do this stuff if they decide they want to and know how to use the search button.
Honestly, look at any board's online count. The guest/member ratio is ridiculous. Right now there are 1400 members and 15000 guests. It's very likely p3's numbers are accurate. The fact is, following the directions for this stuff is a snap. Any problem you're likely to have, someone has already had it asked and answered.
I don't delude myself into thinking rooting or performing most of the widely implemented alterations done to these phones requires that much brain power. Middle school kids can do this stuff if they decide they want to and know how to use the search button.
there are 100,000+ members on these boards so 15,000 lurkers is not something thats unheard of. Those lurkers could very well be members who haven't logged in. Now let's put it into perspective of what p3 is saying. at his lowest range, he says 30%, which in the US, i believe would equal 9 million android users (i'm not sure about the numbers, feel free to correct me). There's quite a difference between 15,000 and 9 million. there simply is not that many people out there who are rooting that are not part of some site. it makes no sense to suggest that there is.
and you are right, the directions are a snap. for us. my mom and my sisters are not idiots, but there's no way they'd be able to just get on here and follow directions without having questions just because the directions are a snap. if something goes wrong, there's no way they'd just not panic and go searching for new answers on how to fix. it seems easy, because you and I and everyone else who's rooted are more technically saavy then anyone else.
but it can be overwhelming for someone who has no knowledge of it, has no idea what they're doing and suddenly theyre inputting commands into a terminal and they dont understand what those commands mean. my sister thinks physics is easy. i dont. at all. but she doesnt know the first thing about hacking her phone or her computer or anything else. trust me, every middle schooler can't just do this.
oh and btw i'm not saying, like some people like to, that android users are some super geniuses and the elite of the smartphone world. that's lame. what i am saying is the people who root most probably have a basic understanding of what they're doing or were interested enough in the concept to look for steps on how to do it. the average user is not like that. they dont care, and they surely wont feel comfortable typing commands into a terminal.
there are 100,000+ members on these boards so 15,000 lurkers is not something thats unheard of. Those lurkers could very well be members who haven't logged in. Now let's put it into perspective of what p3 is saying. at his lowest range, he says 30%, which in the US, i believe would equal 9 million android users (i'm not sure about the numbers, feel free to correct me). There's quite a difference between 15,000 and 9 million. there simply is not that many people out there who are rooting that are not part of some site. it makes no sense to suggest that there is.
I just want to point one thing out..... Your looking at just one forum. There are many, many forums including sister sites that people register on but dont register here etc. In my opinion there could easily be that many root users. Im sure if we totaled all of the boards up and eliminated the duplicates we would have an easy million registered across them. Then you count the lurkers which on some sites, such as the 15k here, there are alot of. Yes, some could be people that havent logged in but im willing to bet than theres only a few of those that just havent logged in yet.
Detonation
Member
Honestly, look at any board's online count. The guest/member ratio is ridiculous. Right now there are 1400 members and 15000 guests. It's very likely p3's numbers are accurate.
Right now there are 70 million smartphone users in the US, and Google owns 33% of that share (source). That's 23.1 million Android users. If all 16000 users viewing this board were rooted, thats just a measly 0.07% of the total. Lets factor in all registered users on all forums/websites out there and be generous, saying all viewers are unique to each site, and go with a round 100,000 (again assuming they are all rooted which is clearly not the case). Thats still only 0.4%. Hell lets just say there are a quarter of a million rooted Android users out there. That there is still only 1%.
nerdslogic
Silver Member
there are 100,000+ members on these boards so 15,000 lurkers is not something thats unheard of. Those lurkers could very well be members who haven't logged in. Now let's put it into perspective of what p3 is saying. at his lowest range, he says 30%, which in the US, i believe would equal 9 million android users (i'm not sure about the numbers, feel free to correct me). There's quite a difference between 15,000 and 9 million. there simply is not that many people out there who are rooting that are not part of some site. it makes no sense to suggest that there is.
I just want to point one thing out..... Your looking at just one forum. There are many, many forums including sister sites that people register on but dont register here etc. In my opinion there could easily be that many root users. Im sure if we totaled all of the boards up and eliminated the duplicates we would have an easy million registered across them. Then you count the lurkers which on some sites, such as the 15k here, there are alot of. Yes, some could be people that havent logged in but im willing to bet than theres only a few of those that just havent logged in yet.
This is probably pretty true.....a lot of people save their credentials so the computer logs them in the moment they arrive on the site. I don't but a lot do.
I tend to agree that those who root are most likely active on forums. Although I feel very comfortable now...and have rooted almost 75 phones now.....not too long ago I was totally green and trust me....I had QUESTIONS.
But the question I have no is this.....P3Droid....if you have rooted 100 plus phones....do you talk to all those people and support them or are they susceptible to walking into a VZW store and getting repremaned for having a rooted phone? I mean IF all this stuff about VZW finding out about all the rooted phones.....sounds like you are in a rush to unroot 100+ phones......no?
I ask because I am almost in a similar position and find myself waiting to see what all plays out to be true and not true. What I still fail to get is why all the focus or attention on rooting when according to all I see tethering is the big "no no"
I am not arguing or insinuating anything....this is an honest question.
@czerdrill
I want you to understand that I don't think that your criticisms are farfetched by any means. What I am saying is that they are the clear obstacles that I would have to overcome in order for this to have any chance whatsoever. I would have to prove in a very concrete and convincing manner that my assumptions that this could be a worthwhile and profitable endevor are in fact accurate. If I cannot do that, then I can't. But going around in circles about it, when both you and I are basing everything on conjectures, is not going to get us anywhere. I recognize your criticisms, they are valid. The quest I am on is to determine the marketability of open source android as a secondary option and to do so in a, matter that protects the interests of both the carriers and the end users. If that cannot be done in this regard, then your criticisms will have effectively outweighed my perceived benefits, and I will report my finding as such, no sugar coating failure when the stats reveal it. Is that fair?
{{ WugFresh }}
I want you to understand that I don't think that your criticisms are farfetched by any means. What I am saying is that they are the clear obstacles that I would have to overcome in order for this to have any chance whatsoever. I would have to prove in a very concrete and convincing manner that my assumptions that this could be a worthwhile and profitable endevor are in fact accurate. If I cannot do that, then I can't. But going around in circles about it, when both you and I are basing everything on conjectures, is not going to get us anywhere. I recognize your criticisms, they are valid. The quest I am on is to determine the marketability of open source android as a secondary option and to do so in a, matter that protects the interests of both the carriers and the end users. If that cannot be done in this regard, then your criticisms will have effectively outweighed my perceived benefits, and I will report my finding as such, no sugar coating failure when the stats reveal it. Is that fair?
{{ WugFresh }}
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