Ahh.. yes.. these are the joys of root we would have to give up for this to have commercial appeal... brink anxiety is something I am afraid we would just have to say goodbye too...lol
{{ WugFresh }}
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A Plan For A Brighter Android Future
- Thread starter WugFresh
- Start date
Ahh.. yes.. these are the joys of root we would have to give up for this to have commercial appeal... brink anxiety is something I am afraid we would just have to say goodbye too...lol
{{ WugFresh }}
Why so serious and complicate it even more.
Could be so easy for them.
Moto makes bad to the bone phones.
Verizon just needs to keep promoting the bad to the bone phones.
Endless technology at your finger tips.
Its up to you to see how far the rabbit hole goes.
They can load them up with apps and go about there day that's it.
one plan and one plan only.
Unlimited data just like they sell us now.
Unlimited, means wow like a lot.
One price for that category, then offer lower plans for families or what not.
But once in the unlimited category.
They no longer need to monitor or control anything.
So easy, what is the problem here.
Ok the bricks are costly to them.
Easy just like the old dells, if seal is removed no warranty.
So we get a new phone, anything that would void warrenty.
As soon as you go to do it we get a pop up.
Are you sure, warrenty will be void.
Signal is sent in, warrenty void.
Easy low maintenance protection for Verizon.
In our ever getting more and more cloudy world of complication.
It could be so easy for them to take a step back and implement a simple one sheet contract.
Pay this its unlimited, break it call your momma.
Do what you want, have a nice day.
Could be so easy for them.
Moto makes bad to the bone phones.
Verizon just needs to keep promoting the bad to the bone phones.
Endless technology at your finger tips.
Its up to you to see how far the rabbit hole goes.
They can load them up with apps and go about there day that's it.
one plan and one plan only.
Unlimited data just like they sell us now.
Unlimited, means wow like a lot.
One price for that category, then offer lower plans for families or what not.
But once in the unlimited category.
They no longer need to monitor or control anything.
So easy, what is the problem here.
Ok the bricks are costly to them.
Easy just like the old dells, if seal is removed no warranty.
So we get a new phone, anything that would void warrenty.
As soon as you go to do it we get a pop up.
Are you sure, warrenty will be void.
Signal is sent in, warrenty void.
Easy low maintenance protection for Verizon.
In our ever getting more and more cloudy world of complication.
It could be so easy for them to take a step back and implement a simple one sheet contract.
Pay this its unlimited, break it call your momma.
Do what you want, have a nice day.
Last edited:
Doulandroid
Member
Either George Thorogood is a Motorola enthusiast, or cross buzzes have once again shown their power. I am sure there is a salient point in there somewhere.?? 
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Last edited:
Sorry, I can't agree with the original post. I respect your point of view, WugFresh, you've clearly pondered the issues for a while, but... frankly, what you're saying reeks of capitulation.
If US carriers' networks are congested with traffic, the answer would be to invest more in infrastructure. It's that simple. Mobile network providers rake in disgusting amounts of money all over the world (even here in Australia with a mere 22 million people), why should they be permitted to double-dip with absurd tethering fees? They should be augmenting the infrastructure to ensure they can provide the service they’ve advertised, sold, and you're already paying for.
Data coming to a phone, whether it's being forwarded to another computer or not, is still data coming to a phone. What gives carriers the right to charge you more on the basis of how you use that data or where you send it to? My problem is this: if you want to download an app to your netbook via your mobile phone, they'll charge you for the privilege of tethering... but if want to download an app to your phone's SD card, then stick that SD in your netbook and copy the app across, or Bluetooth it from phone to PC, there's no extra fee. The idea of tethering is an imaginary distinction'; a cynical exercise in scoring a few extra $$$ out of the power user market.
And it's a damned slippery slope from there: the next step from there would be to charge even more $$$ for particular services. So, not only would a roving user have to pay for "tethering" their phone and laptop, but - since they're already sniffing your datastream - if they find you're trying to VPN back to the office (as more and more people are doing these days), they'll slug you a "VPN access fee"... and you can be sure they will. You're advocating a descent into that feeding frenzy by even suggesting any sort of negotiation with carriers. In Australia, I've never seen a tethering fee - mainly because the population would revolt against any "greedy bastard" organisation who even dared try impose one. Even the nastiest of our bunch, Telstra, wouldn't think of it, because their market would evaporate in a heartbeat. Any Australians reading this, please feel free to contradict me on tethering fees in Australia, if necessary.
I spent some time in the UK back in 2009 and 90% of my internet access requirements were met by tethering my laptop to my WinMo device. Virtually unlimited data at 3G speeds, all for 50p per day, on a pre-paid account! Amazing! Granted, any images I downloaded were resampled to a lower quality on my provider's side - Vodafone - before being sent to my phone (which I wasn't happy about, especially for GMaps), but for the most part I was thrilled with a level of access at such an afforable price. Any Brits reading this, please feel free to contradict me on tethering fees if things have changed since mid-2009.
Replacement parts are factored into the sales cost of the original device (surely). I know of three people who broke their iPhones, went straight down to our local Apple Store, and walked out with new phones - no questions asked. The same is likely true for other vendors. One of those actually went in to return an iPhone she had found in the hopes Apple could contact the owner. She too walked out with a new phone! No questions asked! Apparently she was told "thanks, we'll do that, here's yours". The mind boggles, it really does.
Bricking a phone? There's no reason to have a bricked phone these days. A phone with the itty-bitty equivalent of a "backup BIOS", like desktop motherboards, should be impervious to bricking - even taking back to the vendor and having it looked at, or hard-wiped back to factory defaults, would save manufacturers even more in "replacement hardware" fees.
Overclocking... well, that's just cheating.
But again, vendors factor this stuff into the sales price of the item. Do you honestly think a Xoom is worth the full $800 they're charging?
We should not be punished for getting more value out of older tech. That's like Intel throwing a hissy fit about me turning my old Pentium 2 300MHz into a *nix file server, instead of forking out for a new processor: absurd.
Not exactly. Root users are just bad for businesses with bad business practices, because we know how they screw everyone else.
Apple will never get another cent out of me. Motorola has, just recently, lost all my business - also permanently (a shame, too, I was all moist for the Xoom). I make it a point to advocate against these organisations because I do not believe their business models are ethical. It's up to the company to decide if they want my business again.
Just say it: stock users are ignorant. And I don't mean that in a negative way, I mean simply that stock users DO NOT KNOW what their devices are truly capable of. Case in point: the Atrix 4G - and you'll forgive me for focusing on Motorola, but the travesty of the A4G is is big news for me at the moment - is seriously powerful kit, but has been fundamentally crippled with crapware and a (locked/signed/encrypted/whatever-the-right-phrase-is) bootloader, thereby reducing its potential capacity for excellence via homebrew development work. Motorola does this for a number of reasons, but primarily (I believe) to ensure an upgrade path in 2-3 years. I find this an unacceptable practice and one I choose not to support by funding the organisation in question. As far as I'm concerned, an inaccessible bootloader contravenes the open Android ideology/platform, therefore, the Atrix 4G is faulty. A desktop or notebook computer with a fixed disk you couldn't wipe to install your own operating system - Windows, *nix, BeOS, DOS, Solaris... whatever... would also be considered faulty (and probably wouldn't sell). I don't believe in buying faulty goods. I also less believe in buying faulty goods and then signing away my right to complain about them.
That entire paragraph fills me with a nameless dread.
What you're saying is that the power user community should fight for the manufacturer and/or carrier's business... not the other way around. The concept is so... so ugly... that I really don't have the words to suitably express it.
If manufacturers/carriers didn’t think Android had pulling power, they wouldn’t be using it. We’d all still be on WinMo or Symbian. *shiver*
You’re not. You’re front-line. You have Google’s support (more-or-less).
Even better, manufacturers are scared of you and carriers hate you... or is it the other way around? The dev community is absolutely a force to be reckoned with, don’t fool yourselves into thinking otherwise.
Agreed.
People with a common interest, generally, gravitate towards each other.
You’re asking the corporate oligarchy to validate your existence! Totally unnecessary!
Why pretend that every user is automatically like any other user? Everyone’s going to use their technology differently. The whole point of Android was to let the OS evolve to a point where it could provide a viable starting point for everyone. We’ll all end up in different places.
I don’t appreciate your assumption that all power/dev users are unethical, unprincipled thieves.
I also don’t appreciate your assumption that manufacturers/carriers can’t afford to replace bricked (accidentally or otherwise) phones.
With respect, that’s utter nonsense. An Android phone is a small computer running a fork of Linux.
User: “Dear HP/Dell/Lenovo/etc, Windows failed to install from the recovery disks that came with my laptop - all I did was try Linux! Help! I only bought the computer 14 days ago!”
HP/Dell/Lenovo/etc: “No. You deleted the operating system we gave you, so, you can suck it.”
User: “But... I’m trying to back to that operating system!”
HP/Dell/Lenovo/etc: “So what? We have your money, what do we care?”
It wouldn’t fly on a PC, it sure as hell shouldn’t be permitted to happen for a phone. Trying something other than what the manufacturer issues shouldn’t invalidate your warranty. Manufacturers do not have the right to decide what you can and cannot run on your device. (Unfortunately, Apple has set a killer precedent there with their iDevices, and it’s one every technical community is going to be fighting for years to come.)
It’s a short step from “we do not permit you to run this program on this device” to...
“we do not permit you to store this sort of data on this device”... and then to...
“we will scan your device to ensure you’re not breaking the above two rules.”
IN HELL.
Sorry, but no. You want to get a CEO’s attention? Stop buying what they’re peddling - and when they ask you why, tell them outright: “Your product is crap. See these guys here? Give me more of that.” It’s called the weapon of choice, and from what I read on technical and support forums, it seems a lot of people in the US have forgotten how to wield it.
In Australia we make it a point to Fight the Power, if only in principle - it keeps us sharp and the power in check. I don’t buy Apple (or Motorola), I don’t use Telstra-branded services, I don’t vote for people who aren’t offering fair and responsible solutions to issues. So far as I can tell, it’s much the same in Europe.
It’s the US (and possibly Canada? not sure) where the opposite holds true - corporations get away with bloody murder because people have been indoctrinated and disempowered into believing The Company Is Always Right. I live in a place where the opposite has always been true, and where people stay conscious of it.
Don’t pretend you’re anything more than screaming dollar sign to these companies - you’re in for a world of hurt if you do. You can’t expect them to be rational if their sole motivation is profit. Also, you can’t expect them to play fairly - they’ll just take your ideas and twist them until it suits their purposes. The point is to demand nothing short of total satisfaction - nothing short of excellence. You don’t pay for mediocre service, so why accept it?
That’s the spirit! But don’t just settle for “good enough” - you have to push the companies into giving you what you want. Let their financial departments work out how to provide it, and don’t blindy trust the marketeers to realistically present what’s on offer... they will lie to you.
And when they do, you need to start suing their arses... in Australia, we have the Telecommunications Industry Ombudsman, the Federal Department of Fair Trading, and the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission - three different cattleprods to get the public point across (four if you count various TV shows who cover consumer dissatisfaction). They work. I’m not sure what the options are in the US, but whatever they are, they need to be engaged.
I am not a market, not even a niche one. I am a human being who has an inalienable right to use my goods as I see fit. Don’t be just a market.
There has to be a law against that - right? Invasion of privacy?
Anyway, my $0.02. Take it as you will.
If US carriers' networks are congested with traffic, the answer would be to invest more in infrastructure. It's that simple. Mobile network providers rake in disgusting amounts of money all over the world (even here in Australia with a mere 22 million people), why should they be permitted to double-dip with absurd tethering fees? They should be augmenting the infrastructure to ensure they can provide the service they’ve advertised, sold, and you're already paying for.
Data coming to a phone, whether it's being forwarded to another computer or not, is still data coming to a phone. What gives carriers the right to charge you more on the basis of how you use that data or where you send it to? My problem is this: if you want to download an app to your netbook via your mobile phone, they'll charge you for the privilege of tethering... but if want to download an app to your phone's SD card, then stick that SD in your netbook and copy the app across, or Bluetooth it from phone to PC, there's no extra fee. The idea of tethering is an imaginary distinction'; a cynical exercise in scoring a few extra $$$ out of the power user market.
And it's a damned slippery slope from there: the next step from there would be to charge even more $$$ for particular services. So, not only would a roving user have to pay for "tethering" their phone and laptop, but - since they're already sniffing your datastream - if they find you're trying to VPN back to the office (as more and more people are doing these days), they'll slug you a "VPN access fee"... and you can be sure they will. You're advocating a descent into that feeding frenzy by even suggesting any sort of negotiation with carriers. In Australia, I've never seen a tethering fee - mainly because the population would revolt against any "greedy bastard" organisation who even dared try impose one. Even the nastiest of our bunch, Telstra, wouldn't think of it, because their market would evaporate in a heartbeat. Any Australians reading this, please feel free to contradict me on tethering fees in Australia, if necessary.
I spent some time in the UK back in 2009 and 90% of my internet access requirements were met by tethering my laptop to my WinMo device. Virtually unlimited data at 3G speeds, all for 50p per day, on a pre-paid account! Amazing! Granted, any images I downloaded were resampled to a lower quality on my provider's side - Vodafone - before being sent to my phone (which I wasn't happy about, especially for GMaps), but for the most part I was thrilled with a level of access at such an afforable price. Any Brits reading this, please feel free to contradict me on tethering fees if things have changed since mid-2009.
Replacement parts are factored into the sales cost of the original device (surely). I know of three people who broke their iPhones, went straight down to our local Apple Store, and walked out with new phones - no questions asked. The same is likely true for other vendors. One of those actually went in to return an iPhone she had found in the hopes Apple could contact the owner. She too walked out with a new phone! No questions asked! Apparently she was told "thanks, we'll do that, here's yours". The mind boggles, it really does.
Bricking a phone? There's no reason to have a bricked phone these days. A phone with the itty-bitty equivalent of a "backup BIOS", like desktop motherboards, should be impervious to bricking - even taking back to the vendor and having it looked at, or hard-wiped back to factory defaults, would save manufacturers even more in "replacement hardware" fees.
Overclocking... well, that's just cheating.
But again, vendors factor this stuff into the sales price of the item. Do you honestly think a Xoom is worth the full $800 they're charging?We should not be punished for getting more value out of older tech. That's like Intel throwing a hissy fit about me turning my old Pentium 2 300MHz into a *nix file server, instead of forking out for a new processor: absurd.
Not exactly. Root users are just bad for businesses with bad business practices, because we know how they screw everyone else.
Apple will never get another cent out of me. Motorola has, just recently, lost all my business - also permanently (a shame, too, I was all moist for the Xoom). I make it a point to advocate against these organisations because I do not believe their business models are ethical. It's up to the company to decide if they want my business again.
Just say it: stock users are ignorant. And I don't mean that in a negative way, I mean simply that stock users DO NOT KNOW what their devices are truly capable of. Case in point: the Atrix 4G - and you'll forgive me for focusing on Motorola, but the travesty of the A4G is is big news for me at the moment - is seriously powerful kit, but has been fundamentally crippled with crapware and a (locked/signed/encrypted/whatever-the-right-phrase-is) bootloader, thereby reducing its potential capacity for excellence via homebrew development work. Motorola does this for a number of reasons, but primarily (I believe) to ensure an upgrade path in 2-3 years. I find this an unacceptable practice and one I choose not to support by funding the organisation in question. As far as I'm concerned, an inaccessible bootloader contravenes the open Android ideology/platform, therefore, the Atrix 4G is faulty. A desktop or notebook computer with a fixed disk you couldn't wipe to install your own operating system - Windows, *nix, BeOS, DOS, Solaris... whatever... would also be considered faulty (and probably wouldn't sell). I don't believe in buying faulty goods. I also less believe in buying faulty goods and then signing away my right to complain about them.
That entire paragraph fills me with a nameless dread.
What you're saying is that the power user community should fight for the manufacturer and/or carrier's business... not the other way around. The concept is so... so ugly... that I really don't have the words to suitably express it.
If manufacturers/carriers didn’t think Android had pulling power, they wouldn’t be using it. We’d all still be on WinMo or Symbian. *shiver*
You’re not. You’re front-line. You have Google’s support (more-or-less).
Even better, manufacturers are scared of you and carriers hate you... or is it the other way around? The dev community is absolutely a force to be reckoned with, don’t fool yourselves into thinking otherwise.
Agreed.
People with a common interest, generally, gravitate towards each other.
You’re asking the corporate oligarchy to validate your existence! Totally unnecessary!
Why pretend that every user is automatically like any other user? Everyone’s going to use their technology differently. The whole point of Android was to let the OS evolve to a point where it could provide a viable starting point for everyone. We’ll all end up in different places.
I don’t appreciate your assumption that all power/dev users are unethical, unprincipled thieves.
I also don’t appreciate your assumption that manufacturers/carriers can’t afford to replace bricked (accidentally or otherwise) phones.
With respect, that’s utter nonsense. An Android phone is a small computer running a fork of Linux.
User: “Dear HP/Dell/Lenovo/etc, Windows failed to install from the recovery disks that came with my laptop - all I did was try Linux! Help! I only bought the computer 14 days ago!”
HP/Dell/Lenovo/etc: “No. You deleted the operating system we gave you, so, you can suck it.”
User: “But... I’m trying to back to that operating system!”
HP/Dell/Lenovo/etc: “So what? We have your money, what do we care?”
It wouldn’t fly on a PC, it sure as hell shouldn’t be permitted to happen for a phone. Trying something other than what the manufacturer issues shouldn’t invalidate your warranty. Manufacturers do not have the right to decide what you can and cannot run on your device. (Unfortunately, Apple has set a killer precedent there with their iDevices, and it’s one every technical community is going to be fighting for years to come.)
It’s a short step from “we do not permit you to run this program on this device” to...
“we do not permit you to store this sort of data on this device”... and then to...
“we will scan your device to ensure you’re not breaking the above two rules.”
IN HELL.
Sorry, but no. You want to get a CEO’s attention? Stop buying what they’re peddling - and when they ask you why, tell them outright: “Your product is crap. See these guys here? Give me more of that.” It’s called the weapon of choice, and from what I read on technical and support forums, it seems a lot of people in the US have forgotten how to wield it.
In Australia we make it a point to Fight the Power, if only in principle - it keeps us sharp and the power in check. I don’t buy Apple (or Motorola), I don’t use Telstra-branded services, I don’t vote for people who aren’t offering fair and responsible solutions to issues. So far as I can tell, it’s much the same in Europe.
It’s the US (and possibly Canada? not sure) where the opposite holds true - corporations get away with bloody murder because people have been indoctrinated and disempowered into believing The Company Is Always Right. I live in a place where the opposite has always been true, and where people stay conscious of it.
Don’t pretend you’re anything more than screaming dollar sign to these companies - you’re in for a world of hurt if you do. You can’t expect them to be rational if their sole motivation is profit. Also, you can’t expect them to play fairly - they’ll just take your ideas and twist them until it suits their purposes. The point is to demand nothing short of total satisfaction - nothing short of excellence. You don’t pay for mediocre service, so why accept it?
That’s the spirit! But don’t just settle for “good enough” - you have to push the companies into giving you what you want. Let their financial departments work out how to provide it, and don’t blindy trust the marketeers to realistically present what’s on offer... they will lie to you.
And when they do, you need to start suing their arses... in Australia, we have the Telecommunications Industry Ombudsman, the Federal Department of Fair Trading, and the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission - three different cattleprods to get the public point across (four if you count various TV shows who cover consumer dissatisfaction). They work. I’m not sure what the options are in the US, but whatever they are, they need to be engaged.
I am not a market, not even a niche one. I am a human being who has an inalienable right to use my goods as I see fit. Don’t be just a market.
There has to be a law against that - right? Invasion of privacy?
Anyway, my $0.02. Take it as you will.
Doulandroid
Member
Holy crap, I have a close friend in Australia , and I cannot say that her(nor my) opinions concerning the current plight of individuals versus the corperate/global hegemony differs in the slightest to yours. However corperations were just granted the same status as individuals by the supreme court in America, therefore, ultimately businesses will now be able to not only lobby and litigate as one citizen, but also fund campaigns without limitation or any disclosure. That has created a trend of mergers throughout global -American based companies that would once have been quelled by anti-trust, monopoly busting laws.
The economic climate has changed here so drastically that individuals are made to feel that they really should be greatful to a company because that company allows them, ever so graciously, to use their product.
Genius post, inspiring to some anonymous indiviualists, I am certain. But entirely too common sense. Requiring personal dignity and assuming that the buyer could dictate a terms of service that superceded the seller's influence over government and price fixing agreements among themselves is a fantasy that consumers have given up here long ago. Thanks for trying to help, but we proud Americans are perfectly happy burying ourselves in debt to communist countries and global banking systems to worry about consumer or workers rights.
Now I can go back to deciding on a rom for my thunderbolt, geez.
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The economic climate has changed here so drastically that individuals are made to feel that they really should be greatful to a company because that company allows them, ever so graciously, to use their product.
Genius post, inspiring to some anonymous indiviualists, I am certain. But entirely too common sense. Requiring personal dignity and assuming that the buyer could dictate a terms of service that superceded the seller's influence over government and price fixing agreements among themselves is a fantasy that consumers have given up here long ago. Thanks for trying to help, but we proud Americans are perfectly happy burying ourselves in debt to communist countries and global banking systems to worry about consumer or workers rights.
Now I can go back to deciding on a rom for my thunderbolt, geez.
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Last edited by a moderator:
Doulandroid
Member
Seriously, did you guys scrub the Australian post for some reason? Ck? Am I gonna have to post it somewhere else? C'mon mods, be fair.
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I went back and read through this thread, and I noticed that I said this. I need to call myself out and say that is a bs claim. I was feeling special because I got some information at the time but I certainly don't have "pull" like I stated here. That's just an outright false assertion on my part and I apologize for ever suggesting that in the first place. The outcome of this effort will only be due to the merits of the business proposal I am working on, or the lack thereof. All other connections that may or may not be established during the duration of this project will have absolutely no influence over the final outcome whatsoever except the potential chance of receiving information that proves to be helpful. If I had "pull" then I wouldn't be working this hard on trying to create a solid business proposal at all, instead I would be approaching this initiative from an entirely different angle and would be utilizing every single ounce of said power to achieve the goal. I wish I had such influence, but I certainly don't, and I apologize for ever considering to make such a false and completely unfounded claim. Saying things like doesn't help anyone and just impairs my credibility; I have no interest in doing any of that, so that is why I am calling myself out right now. That aside, I looked over the rest of my posts and I am fully comfortable with everything else I said. I just wanted to get that off my chest before I continued participating in this thread...just wasn't something that I was cool with still lingering in the background. Sorry again. Aiight... guilty conscious alleviated. Moving forward.
Who else here thinks that the consolidated clockwork + true (sbf equivalent) factory reset option + stock recovery mode would be a viable solution for simplifying the process for newb users? If you don't, why? If you do, then hear this next idea out;
I was thinking... just like ROM Manager, Fission ROM Manager, or the new Liberty Toolbox, that these devices could also have an equivalent app for flashing ROMs, mods, and themes. The technology has already been made by Koush and others so implementing it wouldn't be all that difficult, it would just have to utilize the new consolidated recovery mode instead.
Some features that could be included I was thinking of:
-The ability to download zips from a server directly through the GUI, just like those apps I already mentioned do.
-The ability to rate any downloads on 5 star scale just like apps on the market plus see the number of total downloads (I don't know if that's something that devs/themers would actually want or not so its something that would have to be discussed first; but what I was thinking, was that implementing a system like that could provide end users with some extra degrees of protection against bricking; end users could then easily distinguish between popular downloads and those that were beta releases)
-going along with the same idea.. might as well make it practically identical to the android market all together; have comments, screen shots, similar downloads section, more work by the dev section, a donate section, and a link to the corresponding support thread.
This would aggregate all the development projects to one centralized location, and could be segmented by category: ROMs, Themes, Mods. Furthermore, since essentially this would just be a re-implementation of the code that's already built for the android market but with recovery mode utilized for installing the downloads vs apk manager, each download could be specifically tagged in a matter that communicates with the system the exact procedure for flashing it in a fully automated way; what I mean by this, is that if you downloaded a ROM and installed it, your device would automatically make a backup, wipe data, cache, and flash it, if you installed a theme your device would just flash it, if you installed a ROM update and the dev specified that no wipe was required when uploading it to the server, then it would just flash. A system like this would literally eliminate the need for the end user to have any experience whatsoever and could effectively perform every root procedure there is without doing anything more complicated than stock users already do on the market. With this, everything could literally be accomplished directly within a GUI that newbs are already completely familiar with. The more advanced stuff like build.prop edits and sysctl.conf edits could easily be accomplished through apps without the user ever even having to look at a system file. And the real advanced stuff would be left for actual devs, who could fully enjoy their new freedom and utilize this new centralized root market to effectively distribute any type of android project they could ever dream of, and do so without even having to supply installation procedures.. just upload to the server with the right tags and the rest is taking care of. Additionally, please note, that even though with this system everything can be done through a GUI, root users could also do things through recovery if they wanted and have all the same freedoms (+more) that we have now. The best part of this idea is that the code had already been developed; all this is, is just a combination of android market with Fission Rom Manager by Team Refuse on the back end... yes it will require some coding server side for the new upload section, but that cost is negligible in comparison to the gains. This literally takes care of all problems people would have with root besides the occasional bootloop or brick, but that just requires an inbuilt full factory reset.... come to think of it.. it wouldn't even... if you got into the consolidated recovery then you could just restore your recent backup. This new idea truly is something that has restored my faith in this business proposal, this literally would bring android to the next level, allowing any newb out there to theme, rom, mod, and more....
How about that?
{{ WugFresh }}
Last edited:
Doulandroid
Member
I'm a bit sleepy, and just barely talked my three year old out of wearing a coat on a 75degree day, but here is an option: Forget carriers, just start creating a physical environment for people passionate about these kind of things to get together. Talk to bar owners, have a micro-brew/phone outlaws night. A glass case with rooted phones on consignment. Get in fist fights and then make up over over jaegar bombs with any jailbroken types that happen to show up. There are head shops and tattoo parlors in rural towns with only 9k residents, surely we could manage to get out of our houses every couple weeks and share hacks face to face. Maybe the skype leak will help some people become more socially inclined. I'm just disappointed when I see someone with a droid x, ask if they are rooted, and they look at me like I made out with their grandmother.
I like the point by point post btw wug. Most of this thread has been release candidate (with lots of bugs), hopefully now it's getting more stable release level.
I gotta go take a nap.
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I like the point by point post btw wug. Most of this thread has been release candidate (with lots of bugs), hopefully now it's getting more stable release level.
I gotta go take a nap.
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Ummm, this?
Sorry if I offended anyone - most especially you, WugFresh. I commend your enthusiasm, of course, but minorities - no matter how influential or well-financed - negotiating for fair and equitable treatment seems never to have a happy ending in the US. Generally.
I have mentioned this a few times... but that is not what I am trying to do, at all. I am trying to prove the marketability of open source as a yet to be tapped niche. I have been working on ways towards simplifying root procedures so that they are no more difficult than stock. The rest is just marketing the benefits of root, which will not be hard one bit. It will take some time to make it thorough. But if I can make it as easy as installing an app on the market, then the benefits of root will be clear cut. Themes, CyanogenMod, faster performance, addons, anything. If this were a plan to "fight" for us root users... then it would fail. I feel kinda like a broken recorded on this statement.
It is to prove the marketability of open android, to obtain NEW customers to buy android vs competitors, to join the service provider that supports this vs other. For competitive advantage in the market. If root is literally the same level of difficulty to the end users experience as stock... the benefits are clear cut, and it will stimulate new development tremendously, bring in new devs, new consumers, new money. It will effectively do something that no other company has, and attract business.
This has nothing to do with consumer rights, or fighting for whats fair, or demanding a company to do anything. It's showing them something. A plan that will make them more money then they already have with minimal overhead. This plan has ZERO to do with trying to win a battle. This is to show companies that they can really profit by marketing root.
If its easy as one two three... who doesn't want a theme?
{{ WugFresh }}
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Doulandroid
Member
You certainly didn't offend me, I just gave a little tongue in cheek reply. You address macro issues, sometimes micro issues seem easier to deal with. Thanks guys for seeing the difference in flamers, trolls, and realists. Thanks for the wide angle view in your post deemacgee.
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I understand, but you're still pandering to the corporate giants. It really should be the other way around.
Enough vocal proponents of Open Android, and enough vocal opponents of tethering fees, locked bootloaders and other such stupidity will get your message across more than a homebrew marketing campaign would (and by "vocal" I mean "prepared to use money as a tool of influence over companies").
You're trying to negotiate for a basic right you already possess. The moment you start operating as though it's something to win, or win back, you've lost the battle.
I am kind of confused...? I am not in a business meeting right now... I can say anything here. There is no battle....? I am calm. I am making a business plan, then I will get it read. That is the goal as of now. As for it being "homebrew"... yes, it is me that is making it. This is a place to generate ideas... And no... I am not prepared to spend lots of money, I am going to obtain my market research without any capital, from the people who presently do market research. This thread isn't the plan I am turning over... I am confused about your interpretation... How am I operating as though its something to win..? Because my motivation was to keep root? That wasn't my motivation. My motivation was proliferate open source development. I will continue to do things relating to that motivation throughout my entire life, regardless if they lock my boot loader now. I still am confused..?
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Oh... I see. You are saying that leveraging money and being vocal.. would do better than my plan. Yes. Agreed. If I had enough money I could make my own service provider corp. I think that you are trying to downplay my business proposal because I am making it...? But you haven't seen it yet.. it has yet to me made. How can you judge it now? I am still in the idea generation phase. Were you trying to be insulting by calling it "homebrew" ? I hope not... I have not done anything insulting to you. Plus... what am I trying to negotiate? I agree with you if that's what you think my intentions are.. to negotiate with a company... that would NEVER work. So if you think that, then I understand you perspective.
{{ WugFresh }}
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Sorry, I can't agree with the original post. I respect your point of view, WugFresh, you've clearly pondered the issues for a while, but... frankly, what you're saying reeks of capitulation.
If US carriers' networks are congested with traffic, the answer would be to invest more in infrastructure. It's that simple. Mobile network providers rake in disgusting amounts of money all over the world (even here in Australia with a mere 22 million people), why should they be permitted to double-dip with absurd tethering fees? They should be augmenting the infrastructure to ensure they can provide the service theyve advertised, sold, and you're already paying for.
Data coming to a phone, whether it's being forwarded to another computer or not, is still data coming to a phone. What gives carriers the right to charge you more on the basis of how you use that data or where you send it to? My problem is this: if you want to download an app to your netbook via your mobile phone, they'll charge you for the privilege of tethering... but if want to download an app to your phone's SD card, then stick that SD in your netbook and copy the app across, or Bluetooth it from phone to PC, there's no extra fee. The idea of tethering is an imaginary distinction'; a cynical exercise in scoring a few extra $$$ out of the power user market.
And it's a damned slippery slope from there: the next step from there would be to charge even more $$$ for particular services. So, not only would a roving user have to pay for "tethering" their phone and laptop, but - since they're already sniffing your datastream - if they find you're trying to VPN back to the office (as more and more people are doing these days), they'll slug you a "VPN access fee"... and you can be sure they will. You're advocating a descent into that feeding frenzy by even suggesting any sort of negotiation with carriers. In Australia, I've never seen a tethering fee - mainly because the population would revolt against any "greedy bastard" organisation who even dared try impose one. Even the nastiest of our bunch, Telstra, wouldn't think of it, because their market would evaporate in a heartbeat. Any Australians reading this, please feel free to contradict me on tethering fees in Australia, if necessary.
I spent some time in the UK back in 2009 and 90% of my internet access requirements were met by tethering my laptop to my WinMo device. Virtually unlimited data at 3G speeds, all for 50p per day, on a pre-paid account! Amazing! Granted, any images I downloaded were resampled to a lower quality on my provider's side - Vodafone - before being sent to my phone (which I wasn't happy about, especially for GMaps), but for the most part I was thrilled with a level of access at such an afforable price. Any Brits reading this, please feel free to contradict me on tethering fees if things have changed since mid-2009.
Replacement parts are factored into the sales cost of the original device (surely). I know of three people who broke their iPhones, went straight down to our local Apple Store, and walked out with new phones - no questions asked. The same is likely true for other vendors. One of those actually went in to return an iPhone she had found in the hopes Apple could contact the owner. She too walked out with a new phone! No questions asked! Apparently she was told "thanks, we'll do that, here's yours". The mind boggles, it really does.
Bricking a phone? There's no reason to have a bricked phone these days. A phone with the itty-bitty equivalent of a "backup BIOS", like desktop motherboards, should be impervious to bricking - even taking back to the vendor and having it looked at, or hard-wiped back to factory defaults, would save manufacturers even more in "replacement hardware" fees.
Overclocking... well, that's just cheating.
We should not be punished for getting more value out of older tech. That's like Intel throwing a hissy fit about me turning my old Pentium 2 300MHz into a *nix file server, instead of forking out for a new processor: absurd.
Not exactly. Root users are just bad for businesses with bad business practices, because we know how they screw everyone else.
Apple will never get another cent out of me. Motorola has, just recently, lost all my business - also permanently (a shame, too, I was all moist for the Xoom). I make it a point to advocate against these organisations because I do not believe their business models are ethical. It's up to the company to decide if they want my business again.
Just say it: stock users are ignorant. And I don't mean that in a negative way, I mean simply that stock users DO NOT KNOW what their devices are truly capable of. Case in point: the Atrix 4G - and you'll forgive me for focusing on Motorola, but the travesty of the A4G is is big news for me at the moment - is seriously powerful kit, but has been fundamentally crippled with crapware and a (locked/signed/encrypted/whatever-the-right-phrase-is) bootloader, thereby reducing its potential capacity for excellence via homebrew development work. Motorola does this for a number of reasons, but primarily (I believe) to ensure an upgrade path in 2-3 years. I find this an unacceptable practice and one I choose not to support by funding the organisation in question. As far as I'm concerned, an inaccessible bootloader contravenes the open Android ideology/platform, therefore, the Atrix 4G is faulty. A desktop or notebook computer with a fixed disk you couldn't wipe to install your own operating system - Windows, *nix, BeOS, DOS, Solaris... whatever... would also be considered faulty (and probably wouldn't sell). I don't believe in buying faulty goods. I also less believe in buying faulty goods and then signing away my right to complain about them.
That entire paragraph fills me with a nameless dread.
What you're saying is that the power user community should fight for the manufacturer and/or carrier's business... not the other way around. The concept is so... so ugly... that I really don't have the words to suitably express it.
If manufacturers/carriers didnt think Android had pulling power, they wouldnt be using it. Wed all still be on WinMo or Symbian. *shiver*
Youre not. Youre front-line. You have Googles support (more-or-less).
Even better, manufacturers are scared of you and carriers hate you... or is it the other way around? The dev community is absolutely a force to be reckoned with, dont fool yourselves into thinking otherwise.
Agreed.
People with a common interest, generally, gravitate towards each other.
Youre asking the corporate oligarchy to validate your existence! Totally unnecessary!
Why pretend that every user is automatically like any other user? Everyones going to use their technology differently. The whole point of Android was to let the OS evolve to a point where it could provide a viable starting point for everyone. Well all end up in different places.
I dont appreciate your assumption that all power/dev users are unethical, unprincipled thieves.
I also dont appreciate your assumption that manufacturers/carriers cant afford to replace bricked (accidentally or otherwise) phones.
With respect, thats utter nonsense. An Android phone is a small computer running a fork of Linux.
User: Dear HP/Dell/Lenovo/etc, Windows failed to install from the recovery disks that came with my laptop - all I did was try Linux! Help! I only bought the computer 14 days ago!
HP/Dell/Lenovo/etc: No. You deleted the operating system we gave you, so, you can suck it.
User: But... Im trying to back to that operating system!
HP/Dell/Lenovo/etc: So what? We have your money, what do we care?
It wouldnt fly on a PC, it sure as hell shouldnt be permitted to happen for a phone. Trying something other than what the manufacturer issues shouldnt invalidate your warranty. Manufacturers do not have the right to decide what you can and cannot run on your device. (Unfortunately, Apple has set a killer precedent there with their iDevices, and its one every technical community is going to be fighting for years to come.)
Its a short step from we do not permit you to run this program on this device to...
we do not permit you to store this sort of data on this device... and then to...
we will scan your device to ensure youre not breaking the above two rules.
IN HELL.
Sorry, but no. You want to get a CEOs attention? Stop buying what theyre peddling - and when they ask you why, tell them outright: Your product is crap. See these guys here? Give me more of that. Its called the weapon of choice, and from what I read on technical and support forums, it seems a lot of people in the US have forgotten how to wield it.
In Australia we make it a point to Fight the Power, if only in principle - it keeps us sharp and the power in check. I dont buy Apple (or Motorola), I dont use Telstra-branded services, I dont vote for people who arent offering fair and responsible solutions to issues. So far as I can tell, its much the same in Europe.
Its the US (and possibly Canada? not sure) where the opposite holds true - corporations get away with bloody murder because people have been indoctrinated and disempowered into believing The Company Is Always Right. I live in a place where the opposite has always been true, and where people stay conscious of it.
Dont pretend youre anything more than screaming dollar sign to these companies - youre in for a world of hurt if you do. You cant expect them to be rational if their sole motivation is profit. Also, you cant expect them to play fairly - theyll just take your ideas and twist them until it suits their purposes. The point is to demand nothing short of total satisfaction - nothing short of excellence. You dont pay for mediocre service, so why accept it?
Thats the spirit! But dont just settle for good enough - you have to push the companies into giving you what you want. Let their financial departments work out how to provide it, and dont blindy trust the marketeers to realistically present whats on offer... they will lie to you.
And when they do, you need to start suing their arses... in Australia, we have the Telecommunications Industry Ombudsman, the Federal Department of Fair Trading, and the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission - three different cattleprods to get the public point across (four if you count various TV shows who cover consumer dissatisfaction). They work. Im not sure what the options are in the US, but whatever they are, they need to be engaged.
I am not a market, not even a niche one. I am a human being who has an inalienable right to use my goods as I see fit. Dont be just a market.
There has to be a law against that - right? Invasion of privacy?
Anyway, my $0.02. Take it as you will.
The "fight the power" and "stick it to the man" crap doesn't work, sorry. The android community is not that organized and even if the rooting community was, they're not that big a threat to verizon. Companies don't make money off educated consumers. For every educated consumer theres a thousand uneducated ones. Deny all you want, people, the truth is no one cares about hacking their phone, especially if it's going to cost them more and their warranty is voided.
Wanting a phone that works and having no interest in hacking it doesn't make them the carriers' pawns. People need to stop with the freedom fighting crap...
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yeah it was pretty obvious that this was bs, but I'm glad you rectified it for those who undoubtedly believed you.
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