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A Plan For A Brighter Android Future

... This is to show companies that they can really profit by marketing root.

If its easy as one two three... who doesn't want a theme?

No offense intended, but I'm quite happy with the Motorola defaults.
On my Windows Mobile phone, I was happy with the Samsung defaults. It is Google that I have an axe to grind with for not exposing their framegrabber api outside of root privileged access.

Just like I use computers for Software Development at work for which I don't have sysadmin or root access, I don't need full root access on my phone. sudo would do fine (since Google hid the api) , but Google has taken a decent OS like linux and stripped it of the key things I want and created Android.

It would have been a much easier sell to get the Carriers to permit limited sudo access than to demand full root acess, IMO.

Sent from my DROIDX using DroidForums
 
But I have more pull them you would think and I have become informed of more information than I ever thought was possible. Please keep this thread positive regarding comments towards each other.

{{ WugFresh }}

I went back and read through this thread, and I noticed that I said this. I need to call myself out and say that is a bs claim. I was feeling special because I got some information at the time but I certainly don't have "pull" like I stated here. That's just an outright false assertion on my part and I apologize for ever suggesting that in the first place. The outcome of this effort will only be due to the merits of the business proposal I am working on, or the lack thereof. All other connections that may or may not be established during the duration of this project will have absolutely no influence over the final outcome whatsoever except the potential chance of receiving information that proves to be helpful. If I had "pull" then I wouldn't be working this hard on trying to create a solid business proposal at all, instead I would be approaching this initiative from an entirely different angle and would be utilizing every single ounce of said power to achieve the goal. I wish I had such influence, but I certainly don't, and I apologize for ever considering to make such a false and completely unfounded claim. Saying things like doesn't help anyone and just impairs my credibility; I have no interest in doing any of that, so that is why I am calling myself out right now. That aside, I looked over the rest of my posts and I am fully comfortable with everything else I said. I just wanted to get that off my chest before I continued participating in this thread...just wasn't something that I was cool with still lingering in the background. Sorry again. Aiight... guilty conscious alleviated. Moving forward.

Who else here thinks that the consolidated clockwork + true (sbf equivalent) factory reset option + stock recovery mode would be a viable solution for simplifying the process for newb users? If you don't, why? If you do, then hear this next idea out;

I was thinking... just like ROM Manager, Fission ROM Manager, or the new Liberty Toolbox, that these devices could also have an equivalent app for flashing ROMs, mods, and themes. The technology has already been made by Koush and others so implementing it wouldn't be all that difficult, it would just have to utilize the new consolidated recovery mode instead.

Some features that could be included I was thinking of:
-The ability to download zips from a server directly through the GUI, just like those apps I already mentioned do.
-The ability to rate any downloads on 5 star scale just like apps on the market plus see the number of total downloads (I don't know if that's something that devs/themers would actually want or not so its something that would have to be discussed first; but what I was thinking, was that implementing a system like that could provide end users with some extra degrees of protection against bricking; end users could then easily distinguish between popular downloads and those that were beta releases)
-going along with the same idea.. might as well make it practically identical to the android market all together; have comments, screen shots, similar downloads section, more work by the dev section, a donate section, and a link to the corresponding support thread.

This would aggregate all the development projects to one centralized location, and could be segmented by category: ROMs, Themes, Mods. Furthermore, since essentially this would just be a re-implementation of the code that's already built for the android market but with recovery mode utilized for installing the downloads vs apk manager, each download could be specifically tagged in a matter that communicates with the system the exact procedure for flashing it in a fully automated way; what I mean by this, is that if you downloaded a ROM and installed it, your device would automatically make a backup, wipe data, cache, and flash it, if you installed a theme your device would just flash it, if you installed a ROM update and the dev specified that no wipe was required when uploading it to the server, then it would just flash. A system like this would literally eliminate the need for the end user to have any experience whatsoever and could effectively perform every root procedure there is without doing anything more complicated than stock users already do on the market. With this, everything could literally be accomplished directly within a GUI that newbs are already completely familiar with. The more advanced stuff like build.prop edits and sysctl.conf edits could easily be accomplished through apps without the user ever even having to look at a system file. And the real advanced stuff would be left for actual devs, who could fully enjoy their new freedom and utilize this new centralized root market to effectively distribute any type of android project they could ever dream of, and do so without even having to supply installation procedures.. just upload to the server with the right tags and the rest is taking care of. Additionally, please note, that even though with this system everything can be done through a GUI, root users could also do things through recovery if they wanted and have all the same freedoms (+more) that we have now. The best part of this idea is that the code had already been developed; all this is, is just a combination of android market with Fission Rom Manager by Team Refuse on the back end... yes it will require some coding server side for the new upload section, but that cost is negligible in comparison to the gains. This literally takes care of all problems people would have with root besides the occasional bootloop or brick, but that just requires an inbuilt full factory reset.... come to think of it.. it wouldn't even... if you got into the consolidated recovery then you could just restore your recent backup. This new idea truly is something that has restored my faith in this business proposal, this literally would bring android to the next level, allowing any newb out there to theme, rom, mod, and more....

How about that?

{{ WugFresh }}

yeah it was pretty obvious that this was bs, but I'm glad you rectified it for those who undoubtedly believed you.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

No comments on the later part of the post? I really think that addresses some major issues. The data plans are something that have to revised. It's apparent that the providers want to charge for tethering as a separate thing.

But my post that you are referring to covers a very good idea in my opinion. Please share your thoughts on that particular aspect. I know what your overall assessment is, but that idea right there gets me much closer to my goal. The data still needs revision. They may unlock and do all the things I stated in that post. But changing their data plans is not going to happen.

{{ WugFresh }}
 
Sorry, I can't agree with the original post. I respect your point of view, WugFresh, you've clearly pondered the issues for a while, but... frankly, what you're saying reeks of capitulation.

  • We use wireless tethering service but don’t pay for the plan – this over saturates the network and congests the data transfer rate for their non-rooted users who actually pay for the service. Additionally, not only do we use tethering service and not pay for it, but we use it even more than the ones who do pay for it. Some rooted users tether in excess of 30GB+ every month, and Verizon’s base plan for 2GB is 20$ a month.

If US carriers' networks are congested with traffic, the answer would be to invest more in infrastructure. It's that simple. Mobile network providers rake in disgusting amounts of money all over the world (even here in Australia with a mere 22 million people), why should they be permitted to double-dip with absurd tethering fees? They should be augmenting the infrastructure to ensure they can provide the service they’ve advertised, sold, and you're already paying for.

Data coming to a phone, whether it's being forwarded to another computer or not, is still data coming to a phone. What gives carriers the right to charge you more on the basis of how you use that data or where you send it to? My problem is this: if you want to download an app to your netbook via your mobile phone, they'll charge you for the privilege of tethering... but if want to download an app to your phone's SD card, then stick that SD in your netbook and copy the app across, or Bluetooth it from phone to PC, there's no extra fee. The idea of tethering is an imaginary distinction'; a cynical exercise in scoring a few extra $$$ out of the power user market.

And it's a damned slippery slope from there: the next step from there would be to charge even more $$$ for particular services. So, not only would a roving user have to pay for "tethering" their phone and laptop, but - since they're already sniffing your datastream - if they find you're trying to VPN back to the office (as more and more people are doing these days), they'll slug you a "VPN access fee"... and you can be sure they will. You're advocating a descent into that feeding frenzy by even suggesting any sort of negotiation with carriers. In Australia, I've never seen a tethering fee - mainly because the population would revolt against any "greedy bastard" organisation who even dared try impose one. Even the nastiest of our bunch, Telstra, wouldn't think of it, because their market would evaporate in a heartbeat. Any Australians reading this, please feel free to contradict me on tethering fees in Australia, if necessary.

I spent some time in the UK back in 2009 and 90% of my internet access requirements were met by tethering my laptop to my WinMo device. Virtually unlimited data at 3G speeds, all for 50p per day, on a pre-paid account! Amazing! Granted, any images I downloaded were resampled to a lower quality on my provider's side - Vodafone - before being sent to my phone (which I wasn't happy about, especially for GMaps), but for the most part I was thrilled with a level of access at such an afforable price. Any Brits reading this, please feel free to contradict me on tethering fees if things have changed since mid-2009.



Replacement parts are factored into the sales cost of the original device (surely). I know of three people who broke their iPhones, went straight down to our local Apple Store, and walked out with new phones - no questions asked. The same is likely true for other vendors. One of those actually went in to return an iPhone she had found in the hopes Apple could contact the owner. She too walked out with a new phone! No questions asked! Apparently she was told "thanks, we'll do that, here's yours". The mind boggles, it really does.

Bricking a phone? There's no reason to have a bricked phone these days. A phone with the itty-bitty equivalent of a "backup BIOS", like desktop motherboards, should be impervious to bricking - even taking back to the vendor and having it looked at, or hard-wiped back to factory defaults, would save manufacturers even more in "replacement hardware" fees.

Overclocking... well, that's just cheating. ;) But again, vendors factor this stuff into the sales price of the item. Do you honestly think a Xoom is worth the full $800 they're charging?



We should not be punished for getting more value out of older tech. That's like Intel throwing a hissy fit about me turning my old Pentium 2 300MHz into a *nix file server, instead of forking out for a new processor: absurd.



Not exactly. Root users are just bad for businesses with bad business practices, because we know how they screw everyone else.

Apple will never get another cent out of me. Motorola has, just recently, lost all my business - also permanently (a shame, too, I was all moist for the Xoom). I make it a point to advocate against these organisations because I do not believe their business models are ethical. It's up to the company to decide if they want my business again.




Just say it: stock users are ignorant. And I don't mean that in a negative way, I mean simply that stock users DO NOT KNOW what their devices are truly capable of. Case in point: the Atrix 4G - and you'll forgive me for focusing on Motorola, but the travesty of the A4G is is big news for me at the moment - is seriously powerful kit, but has been fundamentally crippled with crapware and a (locked/signed/encrypted/whatever-the-right-phrase-is) bootloader, thereby reducing its potential capacity for excellence via homebrew development work. Motorola does this for a number of reasons, but primarily (I believe) to ensure an upgrade path in 2-3 years. I find this an unacceptable practice and one I choose not to support by funding the organisation in question. As far as I'm concerned, an inaccessible bootloader contravenes the open Android ideology/platform, therefore, the Atrix 4G is faulty. A desktop or notebook computer with a fixed disk you couldn't wipe to install your own operating system - Windows, *nix, BeOS, DOS, Solaris... whatever... would also be considered faulty (and probably wouldn't sell). I don't believe in buying faulty goods. I also less believe in buying faulty goods and then signing away my right to complain about them.



That entire paragraph fills me with a nameless dread.

What you're saying is that the power user community should fight for the manufacturer and/or carrier's business... not the other way around. The concept is so... so ugly... that I really don't have the words to suitably express it.



If manufacturers/carriers didn’t think Android had pulling power, they wouldn’t be using it. We’d all still be on WinMo or Symbian. *shiver*



You’re not. You’re front-line. You have Google’s support (more-or-less).
Even better, manufacturers are scared of you and carriers hate you... or is it the other way around? The dev community is absolutely a force to be reckoned with, don’t fool yourselves into thinking otherwise.



Agreed.



People with a common interest, generally, gravitate towards each other.



You’re asking the corporate oligarchy to validate your existence! Totally unnecessary!



Why pretend that every user is automatically like any other user? Everyone’s going to use their technology differently. The whole point of Android was to let the OS evolve to a point where it could provide a viable starting point for everyone. We’ll all end up in different places.



I don’t appreciate your assumption that all power/dev users are unethical, unprincipled thieves.

I also don’t appreciate your assumption that manufacturers/carriers can’t afford to replace bricked (accidentally or otherwise) phones.



With respect, that’s utter nonsense. An Android phone is a small computer running a fork of Linux.

User: “Dear HP/Dell/Lenovo/etc, Windows failed to install from the recovery disks that came with my laptop - all I did was try Linux! Help! I only bought the computer 14 days ago!”
HP/Dell/Lenovo/etc: “No. You deleted the operating system we gave you, so, you can suck it.”
User: “But... I’m trying to back to that operating system!”
HP/Dell/Lenovo/etc: “So what? We have your money, what do we care?”

It wouldn’t fly on a PC, it sure as hell shouldn’t be permitted to happen for a phone. Trying something other than what the manufacturer issues shouldn’t invalidate your warranty. Manufacturers do not have the right to decide what you can and cannot run on your device. (Unfortunately, Apple has set a killer precedent there with their iDevices, and it’s one every technical community is going to be fighting for years to come.)

It’s a short step from “we do not permit you to run this program on this device” to...

“we do not permit you to store this sort of data on this device”... and then to...

“we will scan your device to ensure you’re not breaking the above two rules.”

IN HELL.



Sorry, but no. You want to get a CEO’s attention? Stop buying what they’re peddling - and when they ask you why, tell them outright: “Your product is crap. See these guys here? Give me more of that.” It’s called the weapon of choice, and from what I read on technical and support forums, it seems a lot of people in the US have forgotten how to wield it.

In Australia we make it a point to Fight the Power, if only in principle - it keeps us sharp and the power in check. I don’t buy Apple (or Motorola), I don’t use Telstra-branded services, I don’t vote for people who aren’t offering fair and responsible solutions to issues. So far as I can tell, it’s much the same in Europe.

It’s the US (and possibly Canada? not sure) where the opposite holds true - corporations get away with bloody murder because people have been indoctrinated and disempowered into believing The Company Is Always Right. I live in a place where the opposite has always been true, and where people stay conscious of it.

Don’t pretend you’re anything more than screaming dollar sign to these companies - you’re in for a world of hurt if you do. You can’t expect them to be rational if their sole motivation is profit. Also, you can’t expect them to play fairly - they’ll just take your ideas and twist them until it suits their purposes. The point is to demand nothing short of total satisfaction - nothing short of excellence. You don’t pay for mediocre service, so why accept it?



That’s the spirit! But don’t just settle for “good enough” - you have to push the companies into giving you what you want. Let their financial departments work out how to provide it, and don’t blindy trust the marketeers to realistically present what’s on offer... they will lie to you.

And when they do, you need to start suing their arses... in Australia, we have the Telecommunications Industry Ombudsman, the Federal Department of Fair Trading, and the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission - three different cattleprods to get the public point across (four if you count various TV shows who cover consumer dissatisfaction). They work. I’m not sure what the options are in the US, but whatever they are, they need to be engaged.



I am not a market, not even a niche one. I am a human being who has an inalienable right to use my goods as I see fit. Don’t be just a market.

VZW has the ability to see who these users are by sending a simple packet to the phone

There has to be a law against that - right? Invasion of privacy?

Anyway, my $0.02. Take it as you will.

The "fight the power" and "stick it to the man" crap doesn't work, sorry. The android community is not that organized and even if the rooting community was, they're not that big a threat to verizon. Companies don't make money off educated consumers. For every educated consumer theres a thousand uneducated ones. Deny all you want, people, the truth is no one cares about hacking their phone, especially if it's going to cost them more and their warranty is voided.

Wanting a phone that works and having no interest in hacking it doesn't make them the carriers' pawns. People need to stop with the freedom fighting crap...

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

I addressed this directly with my post regarding designing it for newbs. There is no fight the power going on. That was admittedly my previous mindframe. There is no fight at all. The end will be some objective considerations, and maybe some modified adaptations of a few ideas I presented with zero accreditation whatsoever.

{{ WugFresh }}
 
Sorry, I can't agree with the original post. I respect your point of view, WugFresh, you've clearly pondered the issues for a while, but... frankly, what you're saying reeks of capitulation.



If US carriers' networks are congested with traffic, the answer would be to invest more in infrastructure. It's that simple. Mobile network providers rake in disgusting amounts of money all over the world (even here in Australia with a mere 22 million people), why should they be permitted to double-dip with absurd tethering fees? They should be augmenting the infrastructure to ensure they can provide the service they’ve advertised, sold, and you're already paying for.

Data coming to a phone, whether it's being forwarded to another computer or not, is still data coming to a phone. What gives carriers the right to charge you more on the basis of how you use that data or where you send it to? My problem is this: if you want to download an app to your netbook via your mobile phone, they'll charge you for the privilege of tethering... but if want to download an app to your phone's SD card, then stick that SD in your netbook and copy the app across, or Bluetooth it from phone to PC, there's no extra fee. The idea of tethering is an imaginary distinction'; a cynical exercise in scoring a few extra $$$ out of the power user market.

And it's a damned slippery slope from there: the next step from there would be to charge even more $$$ for particular services. So, not only would a roving user have to pay for "tethering" their phone and laptop, but - since they're already sniffing your datastream - if they find you're trying to VPN back to the office (as more and more people are doing these days), they'll slug you a "VPN access fee"... and you can be sure they will. You're advocating a descent into that feeding frenzy by even suggesting any sort of negotiation with carriers. In Australia, I've never seen a tethering fee - mainly because the population would revolt against any "greedy bastard" organisation who even dared try impose one. Even the nastiest of our bunch, Telstra, wouldn't think of it, because their market would evaporate in a heartbeat. Any Australians reading this, please feel free to contradict me on tethering fees in Australia, if necessary.

I spent some time in the UK back in 2009 and 90% of my internet access requirements were met by tethering my laptop to my WinMo device. Virtually unlimited data at 3G speeds, all for 50p per day, on a pre-paid account! Amazing! Granted, any images I downloaded were resampled to a lower quality on my provider's side - Vodafone - before being sent to my phone (which I wasn't happy about, especially for GMaps), but for the most part I was thrilled with a level of access at such an afforable price. Any Brits reading this, please feel free to contradict me on tethering fees if things have changed since mid-2009.



Replacement parts are factored into the sales cost of the original device (surely). I know of three people who broke their iPhones, went straight down to our local Apple Store, and walked out with new phones - no questions asked. The same is likely true for other vendors. One of those actually went in to return an iPhone she had found in the hopes Apple could contact the owner. She too walked out with a new phone! No questions asked! Apparently she was told "thanks, we'll do that, here's yours". The mind boggles, it really does.

Bricking a phone? There's no reason to have a bricked phone these days. A phone with the itty-bitty equivalent of a "backup BIOS", like desktop motherboards, should be impervious to bricking - even taking back to the vendor and having it looked at, or hard-wiped back to factory defaults, would save manufacturers even more in "replacement hardware" fees.

Overclocking... well, that's just cheating. ;) But again, vendors factor this stuff into the sales price of the item. Do you honestly think a Xoom is worth the full $800 they're charging?



We should not be punished for getting more value out of older tech. That's like Intel throwing a hissy fit about me turning my old Pentium 2 300MHz into a *nix file server, instead of forking out for a new processor: absurd.



Not exactly. Root users are just bad for businesses with bad business practices, because we know how they screw everyone else.

Apple will never get another cent out of me. Motorola has, just recently, lost all my business - also permanently (a shame, too, I was all moist for the Xoom). I make it a point to advocate against these organisations because I do not believe their business models are ethical. It's up to the company to decide if they want my business again.




Just say it: stock users are ignorant. And I don't mean that in a negative way, I mean simply that stock users DO NOT KNOW what their devices are truly capable of. Case in point: the Atrix 4G - and you'll forgive me for focusing on Motorola, but the travesty of the A4G is is big news for me at the moment - is seriously powerful kit, but has been fundamentally crippled with crapware and a (locked/signed/encrypted/whatever-the-right-phrase-is) bootloader, thereby reducing its potential capacity for excellence via homebrew development work. Motorola does this for a number of reasons, but primarily (I believe) to ensure an upgrade path in 2-3 years. I find this an unacceptable practice and one I choose not to support by funding the organisation in question. As far as I'm concerned, an inaccessible bootloader contravenes the open Android ideology/platform, therefore, the Atrix 4G is faulty. A desktop or notebook computer with a fixed disk you couldn't wipe to install your own operating system - Windows, *nix, BeOS, DOS, Solaris... whatever... would also be considered faulty (and probably wouldn't sell). I don't believe in buying faulty goods. I also less believe in buying faulty goods and then signing away my right to complain about them.



That entire paragraph fills me with a nameless dread.

What you're saying is that the power user community should fight for the manufacturer and/or carrier's business... not the other way around. The concept is so... so ugly... that I really don't have the words to suitably express it.



If manufacturers/carriers didn’t think Android had pulling power, they wouldn’t be using it. We’d all still be on WinMo or Symbian. *shiver*



You’re not. You’re front-line. You have Google’s support (more-or-less).
Even better, manufacturers are scared of you and carriers hate you... or is it the other way around? The dev community is absolutely a force to be reckoned with, don’t fool yourselves into thinking otherwise.



Agreed.



People with a common interest, generally, gravitate towards each other.



You’re asking the corporate oligarchy to validate your existence! Totally unnecessary!



Why pretend that every user is automatically like any other user? Everyone’s going to use their technology differently. The whole point of Android was to let the OS evolve to a point where it could provide a viable starting point for everyone. We’ll all end up in different places.



I don’t appreciate your assumption that all power/dev users are unethical, unprincipled thieves.

I also don’t appreciate your assumption that manufacturers/carriers can’t afford to replace bricked (accidentally or otherwise) phones.



With respect, that’s utter nonsense. An Android phone is a small computer running a fork of Linux.

User: “Dear HP/Dell/Lenovo/etc, Windows failed to install from the recovery disks that came with my laptop - all I did was try Linux! Help! I only bought the computer 14 days ago!”
HP/Dell/Lenovo/etc: “No. You deleted the operating system we gave you, so, you can suck it.”
User: “But... I’m trying to back to that operating system!”
HP/Dell/Lenovo/etc: “So what? We have your money, what do we care?”

It wouldn’t fly on a PC, it sure as hell shouldn’t be permitted to happen for a phone. Trying something other than what the manufacturer issues shouldn’t invalidate your warranty. Manufacturers do not have the right to decide what you can and cannot run on your device. (Unfortunately, Apple has set a killer precedent there with their iDevices, and it’s one every technical community is going to be fighting for years to come.)

It’s a short step from “we do not permit you to run this program on this device” to...

“we do not permit you to store this sort of data on this device”... and then to...

“we will scan your device to ensure you’re not breaking the above two rules.”

IN HELL.



Sorry, but no. You want to get a CEO’s attention? Stop buying what they’re peddling - and when they ask you why, tell them outright: “Your product is crap. See these guys here? Give me more of that.” It’s called the weapon of choice, and from what I read on technical and support forums, it seems a lot of people in the US have forgotten how to wield it.

In Australia we make it a point to Fight the Power, if only in principle - it keeps us sharp and the power in check. I don’t buy Apple (or Motorola), I don’t use Telstra-branded services, I don’t vote for people who aren’t offering fair and responsible solutions to issues. So far as I can tell, it’s much the same in Europe.

It’s the US (and possibly Canada? not sure) where the opposite holds true - corporations get away with bloody murder because people have been indoctrinated and disempowered into believing The Company Is Always Right. I live in a place where the opposite has always been true, and where people stay conscious of it.

Don’t pretend you’re anything more than screaming dollar sign to these companies - you’re in for a world of hurt if you do. You can’t expect them to be rational if their sole motivation is profit. Also, you can’t expect them to play fairly - they’ll just take your ideas and twist them until it suits their purposes. The point is to demand nothing short of total satisfaction - nothing short of excellence. You don’t pay for mediocre service, so why accept it?



That’s the spirit! But don’t just settle for “good enough” - you have to push the companies into giving you what you want. Let their financial departments work out how to provide it, and don’t blindy trust the marketeers to realistically present what’s on offer... they will lie to you.

And when they do, you need to start suing their arses... in Australia, we have the Telecommunications Industry Ombudsman, the Federal Department of Fair Trading, and the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission - three different cattleprods to get the public point across (four if you count various TV shows who cover consumer dissatisfaction). They work. I’m not sure what the options are in the US, but whatever they are, they need to be engaged.



I am not a market, not even a niche one. I am a human being who has an inalienable right to use my goods as I see fit. Don’t be just a market.



There has to be a law against that - right? Invasion of privacy?

Anyway, my $0.02. Take it as you will.

The "fight the power" and "stick it to the man" crap doesn't work, sorry. The android community is not that organized and even if the rooting community was, they're not that big a threat to verizon. Companies don't make money off educated consumers. For every educated consumer theres a thousand uneducated ones. Deny all you want, people, the truth is no one cares about hacking their phone, especially if it's going to cost them more and their warranty is voided.

Wanting a phone that works and having no interest in hacking it doesn't make them the carriers' pawns. People need to stop with the freedom fighting crap...

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

I addressed this directly with my post regarding designing it for newbs. There is no fight the power going on. That was admittedly my previous mindframe. There is no fight at all. The end will be some objective considerations, and maybe some modified adaptations of a few ideas I presented with zero accreditation whatsoever.

{{ WugFresh }}

Hey Wug, no I wasn't referring to you. I know that you're not in the "fight the power" mode. I was talking to the Australian guy who was insinuating that you shouldn't compromise or try to compromise with the carrier and that you should "fight the power". Fighting the power doesn't work, because the power doesn't care and the 42 people who would actually boycott have no power.

About the second part of your other post, yeah I mean in theory it's a great idea (I'm talking about the consolidated recovery that does it all). It would definitely make it easier for the newb user if they can just hit "factory reset" and the phone actually does factory reset back to stock, unrooted completely. But again, the detriment is the money involved. It's not going to be as easy to implement as you think, because of all the different processes for unrooting per manufacturer/device. I don't even know how you "SBF" with an HTC or Samsung. Consolidating a recovery that works across all devices costs money to implement and may not even work, and if you make it a per device recovery that costs money too. That's where the carrier will have reservations about agreeing to.

Secondly, you have to remember that Verizon is not going to give away its power to the user. They're not just going to commission koush to do this. They'll have their own team that they want working on it. Meaning, even if they were to implement something like this, they'd require their own staff, support, internal testing, QA/QC, which costs more money.

And lastly, and this is the most important part, I know you say that people can be won over with marketing and "consumers will buy anything" but this is not an easy sell. The truth is, no matter how much people on DF want to deny it, people just want things that work. They don't want to tinker, they don't need to theme, they're not amazed by the fact that they can overclock. They could care less about those things. They want a polished product that works. That's why Apple is so successful. Because the iPhone works. Plain and simple. You want a phone? It works. You want great apps? It works. You want updates and great support? You got it. That's what the consumer cares about. We (meaning people on this forum, including you and I) romanticize theming, and ROM-ing and tethering, because we are, for lack of a better word, geeks. And we enjoy tinkering with things.

Sure a couple of people might be won over by a Cyanogenmod commercial, but I don't see people paying extra for it. There's people in this thread who've said just that. It's cool to have, not cool to pay for though. And on the carriers end, it's not cool to have and gives to much power to the user. Like many have said (the sensible ones haha), it's a long, uphill battle. Your dedication to it has earned my respect of course, but I think you have to reconsider many things, before any carrier even gives you the time of day....remember the goal is not to have them spend more money, because they're not going to be swayed by "we might be able to make 3% of your customers like this" (and no matter what P3 says, it's not anywhere near 30%, I hope you realize that). For it to work it should require minimal to no investment from them....i honestly don't see any carrier spending millions to implement something that (realistically) is not going to attract millions of people...
 
Only thing I see wrong with keeping theme/roms etc on a central server is a problem with keeping them updated. If we could guarentee they would keep them up to date or let users directly upload to it then that sounds like a great idea Wug.

Sent from my Liberated D2G
 
Hey Wug, no I wasn't referring to you. I know that you're not in the "fight the power" mode. I was talking to the Australian guy who was insinuating that you shouldn't compromise or try to compromise with the carrier and that you should "fight the power". Fighting the power doesn't work, because the power doesn't care and the 42 people who would actually boycott have no power.

And this is why Corporate America is almost universally hated - they've spent decades convincing consumers that grassroots activism doesn't work, and now everyone is an obedient little automaton with a dollar sign on their backs. I realise that's quite an inflammatory comment, and I apologise if it offends, but that's basically the situation there, isn't it?

Someone mentioned something very interesting earlier, about "micro" issues being easier to deal with than "macro" issues. The way I see it, there's no distinction. If you want to get your point - any point - across to JumboCorp(TM), you have to screw them they way they screw you: with money. Pure and simple. It's the only way. Boycotts do work, we have them here and it keeps things in relative balance...

...but I'm not going to be so presumptuous as to tell anyone how to run their campaign (no, really! :P). Believe me when I tell you that my goal in commenting here was not to shoot down or undermine anyone's determination to effect change; I'm all for change if it's in the direction of increased freedom and flexibility for end users - that's an issue which affects us all, regardless of geography. I can only advocate for a hardline stance, because anything less gives Them the opportunity to find new and interesting ways of shafting you.

I sincerely wish everyone well in the endeavour - best of luck to everyone involved - I hope to god you get the result you're after. :)
 
"increased freedom and flexibility for the end user" is exactly why we are all such enthusiastic proponents of truly open phones. I think wugfresh (not trying to speak for him) wants to legitimize and financially quantify the ability of independent developers in terms that major carriers will understand. Thus eliminating the polarity between stock users and modified, non-sanctioned builds produced by devs from Google's AOSP releases, custom ports, leaks, and just generally creative/kanged code. Better is just better, and I will put my money on custom ROMs and kernels over stock anytime.
If carrier policies and/or device manufacturers continue tightening the vise, then major revolt must happen for this community to survive. I am not, by nature, a "fight the power" type, but I can quickly become a" fight the oppression" type.

Sent from my Droid using DroidForums
 
Hey Wug, no I wasn't referring to you. I know that you're not in the "fight the power" mode. I was talking to the Australian guy who was insinuating that you shouldn't compromise or try to compromise with the carrier and that you should "fight the power". Fighting the power doesn't work, because the power doesn't care and the 42 people who would actually boycott have no power.

And this is why Corporate America is almost universally hated - they've spent decades convincing consumers that grassroots activism doesn't work, and now everyone is an obedient little automaton with a dollar sign on their backs. I realise that's quite an inflammatory comment, and I apologise if it offends, but that's basically the situation there, isn't it?

Someone mentioned something very interesting earlier, about "micro" issues being easier to deal with than "macro" issues. The way I see it, there's no distinction. If you want to get your point - any point - across to JumboCorp(TM), you have to screw them they way they screw you: with money. Pure and simple. It's the only way. Boycotts do work, we have them here and it keeps things in relative balance...

...but I'm not going to be so presumptuous as to tell anyone how to run their campaign (no, really! :P). Believe me when I tell you that my goal in commenting here was not to shoot down or undermine anyone's determination to effect change; I'm all for change if it's in the direction of increased freedom and flexibility for end users - that's an issue which affects us all, regardless of geography. I can only advocate for a hardline stance, because anything less gives Them the opportunity to find new and interesting ways of shafting you.

I sincerely wish everyone well in the endeavour - best of luck to everyone involved - I hope to god you get the result you're after. :)

I think Czerdrill's point was not that boycotts don't work - his point was that the number of people that actually care enough about this issue is not going to create a significant enough impact to ANY carriers bottom line for them to listen.

Also - to paint every American company as some evil empire is a little over the top. Sure, some companies could give a crap about what the average consumer thinks and will do whatever it can to squeeze every last penny out of them. But there are plenty more companies that are simply trying to make a decent profit while they provide a service to their customers that those customer's want to use. If enough customers vote with their wallets and take there business elsewhere, then whatever business policies are causing this WILL change. That said, any business will follow the 80/20 rule. We will do what we need to to ensure that 80% of our users are happy with the product/service we provide. We will do what we can to accommodate the 20% as long has it does not have a negative impact to the product/service we provide or our bottom line.

Frankly, I have no problem with them going after people that are doing things that are in violation of their TOS that are having an adverse affect on the network as a whole. Do I agree with the TOS? Not really. Should unlimited data mean unlimited? Yes. Did I sign the TOS and, therefore, am I bound to it's terms? Yes. Am I in violation of the TOS and, therefore, liable for those violations if I tether? Absolutely.
 
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Hey Wug, no I wasn't referring to you. I know that you're not in the "fight the power" mode. I was talking to the Australian guy who was insinuating that you shouldn't compromise or try to compromise with the carrier and that you should "fight the power". Fighting the power doesn't work, because the power doesn't care and the 42 people who would actually boycott have no power.

And this is why Corporate America is almost universally hated - they've spent decades convincing consumers that grassroots activism doesn't work, and now everyone is an obedient little automaton with a dollar sign on their backs. I realise that's quite an inflammatory comment, and I apologise if it offends, but that's basically the situation there, isn't it?

Someone mentioned something very interesting earlier, about "micro" issues being easier to deal with than "macro" issues. The way I see it, there's no distinction. If you want to get your point - any point - across to JumboCorp(TM), you have to screw them they way they screw you: with money. Pure and simple. It's the only way. Boycotts do work, we have them here and it keeps things in relative balance...

...but I'm not going to be so presumptuous as to tell anyone how to run their campaign (no, really! :P). Believe me when I tell you that my goal in commenting here was not to shoot down or undermine anyone's determination to effect change; I'm all for change if it's in the direction of increased freedom and flexibility for end users - that's an issue which affects us all, regardless of geography. I can only advocate for a hardline stance, because anything less gives Them the opportunity to find new and interesting ways of shafting you.

I sincerely wish everyone well in the endeavour - best of luck to everyone involved - I hope to god you get the result you're after. :)

I think Czerdrill's point was not that boycotts don't work - his point was that the number of people that actually care enough about this issue is not going to create a significant enough impact to ANY carriers bottom line for them to listen.

Precisely. The whole "Corporate America is bad" crap is lame and will always be lame. Organizing a boycott of like 40 people against a company with 93 million customers is in a word, laughable. Let's be real here. A lot of people like to talk the talk on these forums, but does anyone really believe that you can even gather 1,000, no 500, no 300, no you know what, 150 people who will discontinue their cellphone service to prove a point? Gimme a break. It's easy to type and say "yeah the carriers are killing us, i'm going to become amish and cut myself off from all things cellular!!", but doing it is quite a different story.

Any "boycott" that could possibly be organized would be the lamest attempt at solidarity ever witnessed. The truth of the matter is..it's just not that serious. Forums give you a place to vent, and the problems seem magnified by a million when you read this threads. But we're all still paying our bills, buying phones the day they come out and not "boycotting".

Maybe in Australia they boycott over such impractical and frivolous things, but it's just a sad attempt at being relevant, or fueled by some "I'm actually in control of everything" complex, when the truth is, no...you're not.
 
I just wanted to state real quick that I do plan on weighing on this conversation later today. I am just swamped at the moment trying to secure my brighter future (lol.. yes that was a lame pun on the thread title) by adequately studying for my x-ray powder diffraction exam today.

But it seems like this thread is getting a bit derailed. Let's try not to gear discussion towards talk on Corporate America, and how it is legitimate or not.

Nor talk on the subject of trying to boycott an international conglomerate as a viable solution when the percentage of those who users who presently care about this topic is completely negligible in comparison to the customer base, and even within that group there exists an even smaller percentage of people who think anything can be done, and within that group there exists an even smaller percentage of those who would ever consider boycotting android devices.

That is talking about a percentage of users that literally couldn't even be picked up on the financial analysis at the end of the fiscal cycle if the CFO was crazy enough to go out 6 digits after the decimal place. The effect of a truck shipping phones that gets stalled in a traffic jam would have a greater impact.

@czerdrill I will respond to your comments towards my new ideas later.

Let's not talk about completely different plans all together. If you have one, then present it clearly in a new thread and I will be more than happy to read it and weigh in.

Alright.. back to studying.

{{ WugFresh }}
 
I'm in class now, so I cannot read through the 35 pages until later tonight, so if this has been said, I apologize in advance.

I love this idea. I really do. However, I worry that it would hit a speed bump with "bloatware" that is put on the phones, especially with Verizon. Those companies pay for their apps to be integrated into the phones, without a way to take them off (without rooting). Personally, that's always been one of my hang ups, and a large reason for me rooting in the first place. I think, legally, that those companies such as Netflix, Verizon's services, etc. may very well argue against something like this. Unless the "unlocked" phones still have the "bloatware" on them. Which, honestly, would make me look for a way to root outside of what Verizon may offer...

Just my .02
 
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Hey Wug, no I wasn't referring to you. I know that you're not in the "fight the power" mode. I was talking to the Australian guy who was insinuating that you shouldn't compromise or try to compromise with the carrier and that you should "fight the power". Fighting the power doesn't work, because the power doesn't care and the 42 people who would actually boycott have no power.

And this is why Corporate America is almost universally hated - they've spent decades convincing consumers that grassroots activism doesn't work, and now everyone is an obedient little automaton with a dollar sign on their backs. I realise that's quite an inflammatory comment, and I apologise if it offends, but that's basically the situation there, isn't it?

Someone mentioned something very interesting earlier, about "micro" issues being easier to deal with than "macro" issues. The way I see it, there's no distinction. If you want to get your point - any point - across to JumboCorp(TM), you have to screw them they way they screw you: with money. Pure and simple. It's the only way. Boycotts do work, we have them here and it keeps things in relative balance...

...but I'm not going to be so presumptuous as to tell anyone how to run their campaign (no, really! :P). Believe me when I tell you that my goal in commenting here was not to shoot down or undermine anyone's determination to effect change; I'm all for change if it's in the direction of increased freedom and flexibility for end users - that's an issue which affects us all, regardless of geography. I can only advocate for a hardline stance, because anything less gives Them the opportunity to find new and interesting ways of shafting you.

I sincerely wish everyone well in the endeavour - best of luck to everyone involved - I hope to god you get the result you're after. :)

I think Czerdrill's point was not that boycotts don't work - his point was that the number of people that actually care enough about this issue is not going to create a significant enough impact to ANY carriers bottom line for them to listen.

Also - to paint every American company as some evil empire is a little over the top. Sure, some companies could give a crap about what the average consumer thinks and will do whatever it can to squeeze every last penny out of them. But there are plenty more companies that are simply trying to make a decent profit while they provide a service to their customers that those customer's want to use. If enough customers vote with their wallets and take there business elsewhere, then whatever business policies are causing this WILL change. That said, any business will follow the 80/20 rule. We will do what we need to to ensure that 80% of our users are happy with the product/service we provide. We will do what we can to accommodate the 20% as long has it does not have a negative impact to the product/service we provide or our bottom line.

Frankly, I have no problem with them going after people that are doing things that are in violation of their TOS that are having an adverse affect on the network as a whole. Do I agree with the TOS? Not really. Should unlimited data mean unlimited? Yes. Did I sign the TOS and, therefore, am I bound to it's terms? Yes. Am I in violation of the TOS and, therefore, liable for those violations if I tether? Absolutely.

I'm in class now, so I cannot read through the 35 pages until later tonight, so if this has been said, I apologize in advance.

I love this idea. I really do. However, I worry that it would hit a speed bump with "bloatware" that is put on the phones, especially with Verizon. Those companies pay for their apps to be integrated into the phones, without a way to take them off (without rooting). Personally, that's always been one of my hang ups, and a large reason for me rooting in the first place. I think, legally, that those companies such as Netflix, Verizon's services, etc. may very well argue against something like this. Unless the "unlocked" phones still have the "bloatware" on them. Which, honestly, would make me look for a way to root outside of what Verizon may offer...

Just my .02

However, as a counterpoint to that, isn't the bloatware that is on the Motorola Atrix 4g able to be removed without the necessity to root? I am sure I read that in one of the reviews of the Atrix.
 
I'm in class now, so I cannot read through the 35 pages until later tonight, so if this has been said, I apologize in advance.

I love this idea. I really do. However, I worry that it would hit a speed bump with "bloatware" that is put on the phones, especially with Verizon. Those companies pay for their apps to be integrated into the phones, without a way to take them off (without rooting). Personally, that's always been one of my hang ups, and a large reason for me rooting in the first place. I think, legally, that those companies such as Netflix, Verizon's services, etc. may very well argue against something like this. Unless the "unlocked" phones still have the "bloatware" on them. Which, honestly, would make me look for a way to root outside of what Verizon may offer...

Just my .02

What would be their legal argument? In the PC world, vendors put bloatware on the computers all the time, knowing full well that savvy users can remove it. I believe the only party that would have a legal claim would be the carrier if they made you agree in your contract to specific bloatware. I doubt they are going to create contracts for specific devices.

Brandon
 
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