P3Droid: Some Food for Thought - Bootloaders, Rooting, Manufacturers, and Carriers

[SquireSCA]

I understand that tethering is a big concern/issue on these forums. But, I think the whole article isn't just about that.

I think it also deals with the fact that when we root and flash roms/kernels, we end up with phones that we can be relatively happy with well beyond the planned upgrade cycle that big name carriers are used to. Before the emergence of Android, most people signed a contract, and updated to the newest, sexiest looking phone as soon as they could (even the "crackberry" crowd). Now, people are still rocking their OG droids, well after the release date. Granted, yes our community is small in terms of the vast majority of Android users. But still using the same phone, when 4 years ago we would have upgraded as quickly as possible...that's hurting the carriers' pockets.

On the flip-side of people doing that, you have more and more "tech enthusiasts" signing up for 1-year contracts so that they can upgrade to the latest and greatest every 10-12 months, which does have potential to hit carriers hard, since they make almost all their money off of 2-year contracts, not the price of the phone.

What I think may happen, possibly far into the future, is Google becoming a carrier as well as a platform provider. This is all skeptical, of course, but if they truly wanted to stick to the "open-ended" side of things (while big carriers like Verizon and AT&T were crying about losing...lets face it...paltry sums of money from people not continuously upgrading) it might be one of the best moves they could do for the Android community.

I could, however, also know nothing and be completely wrong in this speculation.

I disagree with that.

Verizon subsidizes the price of a new phone. It takes them many months of you paying your monthly bill before they recoup that expense. After that, they are making more profit from you every month because part of that is not going to pay off that amount that they essentially lent to you to purchase that $600 phone at $200.

So if we kept using the old phones for years and years, that actually improves their profit margins. When we buy a new phone, they have to again recoup that subsidy before they start making the higher profit margin again...

 

[silvervagon]

It's not an expense if it's not a cost they have to recover - it's merely lost income.

 

[SquireSCA]

Not to mention all the times they have to replace phones all the people that don't pay the bills and early terminaton fees. And as mentioned what they lose on upgrades and promotions. Most places that hold you into a contract do it for a reason because they won't really start making profit until after its up and they hope they have got you to like them enough to stay once its over. So they can make the real profit.

Sent from my DROIDX using DroidForums

Bingo. I used to work at ADP, the payroll company, as a sales rep. I specialized in Time and Labor, and one of the platforms that I sold was the "Workforce Central" suite from Kronos.

People would look at the monthly charges and the $20k implementation fee and balk. What they did not realize is that every time I sold a system, ADP had to basically write a check to Kronos for $17k for the licensing fees. On average, ADP will invest 150 man hours to get that system up and running, programmed, tested, train the client and turn them over to client services.

On average, it takes 18 months before ADP saw a dime of profit from that sale. The reason that they did it, was because they knew that they had a great platform and that people would be on it for 5-10 years.

The phone companies are the same way. You buy the phone from Verizon, but they have to purchase it from Moto. They have to build the infrastructure, they have to support it, they have overhead up the wazoo.

They don't want you upgrading phones every 6 months, which is why they moved the upgrade cycle out to 20 months. They were losing money.

 

[Irishdoom]

I agree with much of what is being said here, but VZW doesn't pay $600 for any phone.

 

[SquireSCA]

It is stealing maybe by a slim margin(if that makes you feel better)but still stealing, it is basically using a sservice that Verizon offers at a fee -3g mobile hot spot (20 a month) and not paying last time I checked that is stealing. The unlimited data Verizon is providing is meant to to be used on the device which they are providing service to.

And go ahead and end your services with Verizon as mentioned before this is something that all carriers are planning on doing. Good luck I hope your track phone offers what Verizon can.

Sent from my DROIDX using DroidForums

So if tomorrow Verizon said that their unlimited plans did not cover video or audio streaming, just browsing, and that if you wanted to watch YouTube, Hulu or Pandora on your phone, that you would have to pay an extra $20, you would be fine with that?

I mean, they could put it in the contract, to artificially create a new "feature" and charge you for it above and beyond your "unlimited" plan.

The point here is, that unlimited starts to lose its luster when you keep adding limitations and fees to it. LOL

 

[SquireSCA]

I agree with much of what is being said here, but VZW doesn't pay $600 for any phone.

I know, it is just a number for illustrative purposes.

What it comes down to is that I pay for my 5GB of data, or my 3-4 plates of food, or my Netflix rentals each month.

So long as I am the one using them, and I am under the limits they they impose, it shouldn't matter what utensil I eat the food with, or which of my TV's I watch the DVD on, or whether it is my phone or my phone+laptop...

As someone else said, when I purchase a CD, it is not only for "home use". I can put that CD into a walkman, or my car, or take it with me to a party and play it there. I should not be limited to listening to that CD on a particular stereo, and charged if I use it on a different one.

It's still me using the product that I bought. Unless I am duplicating it and handing it out to other people, then I am not doing anything wrong.

Just because they want to improve profit margins and can come up with schemes aimed at that, doesn't make me a criminal.

And to be honest, I am tethering for perhaps 15 minutes every month or two, seriously. So I don't have a huge stake in the tethering issue, but I feel I am entitled to call BS when I see it.

 

[tcayton49]

How about this analogy: When you got your phone you signed a contract agreeing to Verizon's terms of use. One of their terms is that if you wanna use tethering you pay an extra $20. If you use tethering without paying, you're breaking the terms of the agreement. They WILL do what they can to stop you.

So whether you consider it a breakfast buffet, A salad bar, bottomless drinks at the club, or whatever you wanna think of it as, its still a contract that they will enforce. You agreed to it, you gotta live with it.

 

[UNC]

I agree with much of what is being said here, but VZW doesn't pay $600 for any phone.

I know, it is just a number for illustrative purposes.

What it comes down to is that I pay for my 5GB of data, or my 3-4 plates of food, or my Netflix rentals each month.

So long as I am the one using them, and I am under the limits they they impose, it shouldn't matter what utensil I eat the food with, or which of my TV's I watch the DVD on, or whether it is my phone or my phone+laptop...

As someone else said, when I purchase a CD, it is not only for "home use". I can put that CD into a walkman, or my car, or take it with me to a party and play it there. I should not be limited to listening to that CD on a particular stereo, and charged if I use it on a different one.

It's still me using the product that I bought. Unless I am duplicating it and handing it out to other people, then I am not doing anything wrong.

Just because they want to improve profit margins and can come up with schemes aimed at that, doesn't make me a criminal.

And to be honest, I am tethering for perhaps 15 minutes every month or two, seriously. So I don't have a huge stake in the tethering issue, but I feel I am entitled to call BS when I see it.

Let's be honest here, many people who tether do it to give other people internet access.
As for the buffet analogy, the buffet DOES sell you an "unlimited" buffet, but you can't take it home and eat it... You paid for unlimited food, what does it matter if you eat it at home...

I'll say it again for clarity. If you don't agree with the TOS, dont sign it. Lol, I love the idea of litigation... "Let's sue them for stopping us from stealing".. why didn't Napster think of that defense.

 

[SquireSCA]

How about this analogy: When you got your phone you signed a contract agreeing to Verizon's terms of use. One of their terms is that if you wanna use tethering you pay an extra $20. If you use tethering without paying, you're breaking the terms of the agreement. They WILL do what they can to stop you.

So whether you consider it a breakfast buffet, A salad bar, bottonless drinks at the club, or whatever you wanna think of it as, its still a contract that they will enforce. You agreed to it, you gotta live with it.

Ok, so if your internet provider stated that you are only allowed to use your $70 a month cable modem on that PC. And that if you wanted to install a router, that was extra.

Want to put your XBox on the net? Extra.

Want to stream Netflix to your PS3? Extra.

Your buddy comes over to watch the ball game and brings his iPad with him and wants to jump on your Wifi? You get hit with an "additional usage" fee.

You would be fine with that?

When I signed up, there was no tethering service offered, this was a non-issue.

This is a case of a corporation desperate for profits, taking their data service and splitting it into different parts to be able to charge additional fees and make more money by soaking their customers for every dollar that they can.

 

[SquireSCA]

I agree with much of what is being said here, but VZW doesn't pay $600 for any phone.

I know, it is just a number for illustrative purposes.

What it comes down to is that I pay for my 5GB of data, or my 3-4 plates of food, or my Netflix rentals each month.

So long as I am the one using them, and I am under the limits they they impose, it shouldn't matter what utensil I eat the food with, or which of my TV's I watch the DVD on, or whether it is my phone or my phone+laptop...

As someone else said, when I purchase a CD, it is not only for "home use". I can put that CD into a walkman, or my car, or take it with me to a party and play it there. I should not be limited to listening to that CD on a particular stereo, and charged if I use it on a different one.

It's still me using the product that I bought. Unless I am duplicating it and handing it out to other people, then I am not doing anything wrong.

Just because they want to improve profit margins and can come up with schemes aimed at that, doesn't make me a criminal.

And to be honest, I am tethering for perhaps 15 minutes every month or two, seriously. So I don't have a huge stake in the tethering issue, but I feel I am entitled to call BS when I see it.

Let's be honest here, many people who tether do it to give other people internet access.
As for the buffet analogy, the buffet DOES sell you an "unlimited" buffet, but you can't take it home and eat it... You paid for unlimited food, what does it matter if you eat it at home...

I'll say it again for clarity. If you don't agree with the TOS, dont sign it. Lol, I love the idea of litigation... "Let's sue them for stopping us from stealing".. why didn't Napster think of that defense.

Because when you take food home, you are obviously taking more than you could eat at that one sitting.

But being that we have caps on our "unlimited" data, we are not getting more than we paid for. We are simply getting what we paid for via a different device. I am taking my food and eating it with different utensils rather than eating everything with a fork.

That's the difference.

Now if I eat more than my share of data, charge me, just as many buffets will let you take some food home, but they weigh it and charge you extra, because you are going over the limit.

 

[sgtguthrie]

So I guess what comes to my mind are a few questions.

1. Can these claims be substantiated? Is verizon planning on shutting off rooted users? I would think if I was in some kind of database (being that I didn't accept the last 3 OTA updates on my D1) would they not have said something when I upgraded my phone to the Thunderbolt?

I'm not saying I don't believe P3, but I would like to be able to substantiate his claims.

2. Is this really stopping anyone from rooting? I want to root my TB to remove bloat and underclock, but am kind of hesitating knowing that there is a GB OTA coming soon. I mean, I could always unroot, update, then root again after the update (once there's a rooting method for the new update, providing there is one). It's not like They push out updates regularly. On the TB we'll probably only get 2 major ones, GB and Ice Cream. Maybe some minor ones in between. I think in the life of my d1 there were 5 total. My wife's incredible has gotten 1 I think?

3. Does anyone think they may only shut down the rooted users who are using TONS of data? Why mess with someone who just wants to remove bloat, underclock, and actually be able to backup system and apps with data? It just doesn't really make sense to me. They already have the right to bill you for services you are using without paying. IE: having a phone without an appropriate data plan to match. Why not just do that with those tethering? Leave the rest of us alone.


These are my thoughts, I would love to hear replies from others who know more than me. Thanks...

 

[tcayton49]

How about this analogy: When you got your phone you signed a contract agreeing to Verizon's terms of use. One of their terms is that if you wanna use tethering you pay an extra $20. If you use tethering without paying, you're breaking the terms of the agreement. They WILL do what they can to stop you.

So whether you consider it a breakfast buffet, A salad bar, bottonless drinks at the club, or whatever you wanna think of it as, its still a contract that they will enforce. You agreed to it, you gotta live with it.

Ok, so if your internet provider stated that you are only allowed to use your $70 a month cable modem on that PC. And that if you wanted to install a router, that was extra.

Want to put your XBox on the net? Extra.

Want to stream Netflix to your PS3? Extra.

Your buddy comes over to watch the ball game and brings his iPad with him and wants to jump on your Wifi? You get hit with an "additional usage" fee.

You would be fine with that?

When I signed up, there was no tethering service offered, this was a non-issue.

This is a case of a corporation desperate for profits, taking their data service and splitting it into different parts to be able to charge additional fees and make more money by soaking their customers for every dollar that they can.

Glad you asked. Before I hooked up my router, I called my cable company to make sure it was ok. Not only did they say it was ok, but they actually encouraged it. If they had said that I couldn't do it, then I would have either not done it or been prepared to deal with the consequences if caught.

 

[SquireSCA]

How about this analogy: When you got your phone you signed a contract agreeing to Verizon's terms of use. One of their terms is that if you wanna use tethering you pay an extra $20. If you use tethering without paying, you're breaking the terms of the agreement. They WILL do what they can to stop you.

So whether you consider it a breakfast buffet, A salad bar, bottonless drinks at the club, or whatever you wanna think of it as, its still a contract that they will enforce. You agreed to it, you gotta live with it.

Ok, so if your internet provider stated that you are only allowed to use your $70 a month cable modem on that PC. And that if you wanted to install a router, that was extra.

Want to put your XBox on the net? Extra.

Want to stream Netflix to your PS3? Extra.

Your buddy comes over to watch the ball game and brings his iPad with him and wants to jump on your Wifi? You get hit with an "additional usage" fee.

You would be fine with that?

When I signed up, there was no tethering service offered, this was a non-issue.

This is a case of a corporation desperate for profits, taking their data service and splitting it into different parts to be able to charge additional fees and make more money by soaking their customers for every dollar that they can.

Glad you asked. Before I hooked up my router, I called my cable company to make sure it was ok. Not only did they say it was ok, but they actually encouraged it. If they had said that I couldn't do it, then I would have either not done it or been prepared to deal with the consequences if caught.

So, if when you signed up, routers and internet connection sharing didn't exist as far as they were concerned, and later on they decided to start offering and charging for it, you would have felt compelled to call them and volunteer to start paying for it?

Interesting...

 

[UNC]

I know, it is just a number for illustrative purposes.

What it comes down to is that I pay for my 5GB of data, or my 3-4 plates of food, or my Netflix rentals each month.

So long as I am the one using them, and I am under the limits they they impose, it shouldn't matter what utensil I eat the food with, or which of my TV's I watch the DVD on, or whether it is my phone or my phone+laptop...

As someone else said, when I purchase a CD, it is not only for "home use". I can put that CD into a walkman, or my car, or take it with me to a party and play it there. I should not be limited to listening to that CD on a particular stereo, and charged if I use it on a different one.

It's still me using the product that I bought. Unless I am duplicating it and handing it out to other people, then I am not doing anything wrong.

Just because they want to improve profit margins and can come up with schemes aimed at that, doesn't make me a criminal.

And to be honest, I am tethering for perhaps 15 minutes every month or two, seriously. So I don't have a huge stake in the tethering issue, but I feel I am entitled to call BS when I see it.

Let's be honest here, many people who tether do it to give other people internet access.
As for the buffet analogy, the buffet DOES sell you an "unlimited" buffet, but you can't take it home and eat it... You paid for unlimited food, what does it matter if you eat it at home...

I'll say it again for clarity. If you don't agree with the TOS, dont sign it. Lol, I love the idea of litigation... "Let's sue them for stopping us from stealing".. why didn't Napster think of that defense.

Because when you take food home, you are obviously taking more than you could eat at that one sitting.

But being that we have caps on our "unlimited" data, we are not getting more than we paid for. We are simply getting what we paid for via a different device. I am taking my food and eating it with different utensils rather than eating everything with a fork.

That's the difference.

Now if I eat more than my share of data, charge me, just as many buffets will let you take some food home, but they weigh it and charge you extra, because you are going over the limit.

You taking the internet service off your phone and giving it to another device is akin to me taking the plate from the buffet and eating it at McDonald's. I mean, why should they care, its still the same amount of food........

The reason they care has already been explained at length. Because YOU signed a contract.


Think about it this way, you've got a gasoline pump with unlimited gasoline. (Bandwidth)
But you can only pump thru a straw. (Your phone)
The very reason the gas (bandwidth) is free, is because there is such a small amount being drawn out at once.
Now, switch the straw (phone) with a garden hose (computer).. they are both drawing from the same "unlimited" gas pump, but at vastly different rates...

There is only so much content you would want to use your phone to access, that's what the carriers are banking on. Once you start using your computer the whole internet opens up.

Jeebus, American Morals have gone up in smoke.

 

[OneTenderRebel]

Short and sweet you are paying for a data connection to one device, not broadband internet. So comparing your phone to a router is just foolish thinking.

sent from the great depths of my phones internet (thanks Al Gore)