P3Droid: Some Food for Thought - Bootloaders, Rooting, Manufacturers, and Carriers

[czerdrill]

Well it's funny that so many here say oh the hacking community is small and insignificant and our wants and needs mean nothing to the big Co's. Yet the same insignificant community can cause the whole industry to spend all this time and effort to squash. You can't have it both ways either we are too small to matter or not. If we are big enough to cause this type of expense then we are big enough to cause change. Its sad when some say oh the writing is on the wall just live with it... That is a defeatist attitude and one that I personally will not take. Sure if you want to roll over be my guest most people do and a few will not and they will fight. These are the few that get policies to change via laws, courts or using their own dollars as leverage. I will speak my mind, I will tell VZW, Moto etc... my thoughts and I will speak with my dollars by not rewarding a company or companies that try to stop me from doing what I want with my own property.

Whether this happens or not I don't know because I can't see how carries that use sim cards can stop u from using a rooted phone but anyway... If we just sit back and take it then we deserve to be screwed. We have voices, we have ovt representatives and we have the courts that we can use to keep the playing field even. Look at apples loss on DMCA grounds with regards to jailbreaking. It is legal to jailbreak, thus it is legal to root and if carriers do go this route it will be in our best interest to sue.

Regardless, I will not reward any company that keeps me from using my own property as I see fit. I don't tether, or use bootleg apps for free, or do anything illegal with my phones. I understand the need to protect content and the network but not when it tramples my rights. Just because I root doesn't mean I'm a criminal...

+1,000,000

I'm in the exact same boat. I personally just love having access to my CPU settings and the ability to overclock and customize the look and feel of my phone. Aside from the obvious benefits of having a custom recovery, backing up and restoring full system and user data (my old blackberry completely froze and had to be replaced and I lost everything). And about not rewarding a company, that is exactly why I went to the thunderbolt after my moto droid. Goodbye moto

you two are missing the obvious point, as is every other "freedom fighter" here. you two may not be tethering, but the fact of the matter is many rooters are. and that's why rooters are being targeted. if anyone here believes vzw is doing this to go after rooters who put a theme on their phone, they're very naive and have the "corporations are evil and out to get me" childish mentality. it's simply not the case. verizon is going after rooters because rooters are the ones who tether the most. and tethering is stealing a service from them.

to the person who said "if we don't matter why are these measures being taken"? again...because rooters are stealing a service. that doesn't mean that 5 people boycotting verizon is going to affect them. but no company is going to put up with even 1 person stealing a service from them. it doesn't mean vzw is shaking in their boots wondering what to do when the 30-something people who actually will boycott, do. we all know everyone here swearing up and down that "i'm leaving verizon!" and "if this happens, i'm canceling everything verizon i own and burning my verizon visor" or "i'm done with verizon, this is unfair, i'm going to sue if they do this" isn't going to do a thing. it's all talk, and verizon knows that. put your money where your mouth is, or obey the contract that you signed. you are not in control, vzw is, and that's just what it is. the only options are to accept that, or do something about it.

since we all know no one here is going to do anything about it, i fail to see why threads like this come up all the time.

 

[cynnar]

My thoughts.

Tether issue.
Take it how you will. Steal means to take something from someone else without permission. If you have permission to access internet how is it stealing? Sure you can say you are in violation of the tos but not stealing.

Everyone quick to jump on vzw side but truth is they are stealing from you.

Unlimited.
Well if I pay for unlimited then I get unlimited. If they cap you at 5gb then they are stealing from you.

I use 7 to 8 gb monthly. No tether. I don't use it. Probably been throttled down. But lets face it this is not cable speeds here.

I think our devs and hackers (whom none of this would be possible) do what they do because they love it. I do not see them saying oh well version won. We quit.

Maybe all carriers are trying or can detect root. Who cares. After all they are after the bottom dollar. Your money spends as good as a person with non rooted phone.

Never ever forget that we the people have the power. Don't think so? Where is DRM and why? How many of you have a android software phone because someone told you about it?

I think it is all a scare tactic. O have seen things like this float around for years. I'm not trying to say that our trust friends misinformed us, but rather was deliberately told wrong. Until I see proof it will remain that way to me.

Sent from Droid powered by Pete's GPA

 

[czerdrill]

My thoughts.

Tether issue.
Take it how you will. Steal means to take something from someone else without permission. If you have permission to access internet how is it stealing? Sure you can say you are in violation of the tos but not stealing.

Everyone quick to jump on vzw side but truth is they are stealing from you.

Unlimited.
Well if I pay for unlimited then I get unlimited. If they cap you at 5gb then they are stealing from you.

I use 7 to 8 gb monthly. No tether. I don't use it. Probably been throttled down. But lets face it this is not cable speeds here.

I think our devs and hackers (whom none of this would be possible) do what they do because they love it. I do not see them saying oh well version won. We quit.

Maybe all carriers are trying or can detect root. Who cares. After all they are after the bottom dollar. Your money spends as good as a person with non rooted phone.

Never ever forget that we the people have the power. Don't think so? Where is DRM and why? How many of you have a android software phone because someone told you about it?

I think it is all a scare tactic. O have seen things like this float around for years. I'm not trying to say that our trust friends misinformed us, but rather was deliberately told wrong. Until I see proof it will remain that way to me.

Sent from Droid powered by Pete's GPA

You don't have permission to tether, and you do, so it's stealing. You're answering your own question with your definition of stealing. And that question has been answered countless times. The problem is the tether-ers make an exception for tethering when it comes to "stealing". To them it's "using mai phone the way i wants"

They don't cap you at 5GB. Nowhere does it say that, no one has proof of that. Again, tether-ers dont want to believe that, and use this 5B crap as another way to justify their tethering.

The devs and modders don't have a choice about whether verizon wins or not. Again, this pseudo-solidarity that everyone seems to think exists on this and other android forums is not real. The truth is most of the people who type 40 page rants about evil VZW are not going to do a thing about it, and will be on line to buy the next phone when it comes out. I know this, you know this, and the tether-ers know this (but won't admit it). The 8 people who actually do decide to do something will simply be laughed at.

It could very well be a scare tactic. Maybe VZW is not going to do anything. The point is if they wanted to they can. It's a scare tactic that has a basis. It's not some baseless argument like the tethering is not stealing argument is. VZW has a leg to stand on if they choose to pursue this...tether-ers don't. You're not paying for an offered service, plain and simple and you're getting it for free. That's stealing. You can justify it all you want, but "unlimited data" does not, nor was ever presented to mean, "do whatever you want with no restrictions" data. The tether-ers of course are in denial though...

 

[Droid-Xer]

You can bluetooth tether on a stock unrooted phone...

 

[52brandon]

you two are missing the obvious point, as is every other "freedom fighter" here. you two may not be tethering, but the fact of the matter is many rooters are. and that's why rooters are being targeted. if anyone here believes vzw is doing this to go after rooters who put a theme on their phone, they're very naive and have the "corporations are evil and out to get me" childish mentality. it's simply not the case. verizon is going after rooters because rooters are the ones who tether the most. and tethering is stealing a service from them.

to the person who said "if we don't matter why are these measures being taken"? again...because rooters are stealing a service. that doesn't mean that 5 people boycotting verizon is going to affect them. but no company is going to put up with even 1 person stealing a service from them. it doesn't mean vzw is shaking in their boots wondering what to do when the 30-something people who actually will boycott, do. we all know everyone here swearing up and down that "i'm leaving verizon!" and "if this happens, i'm canceling everything verizon i own and burning my verizon visor" or "i'm done with verizon, this is unfair, i'm going to sue if they do this" isn't going to do a thing. it's all talk, and verizon knows that. put your money where your mouth is, or obey the contract that you signed. you are not in control, vzw is, and that's just what it is. the only options are to accept that, or do something about it.

since we all know no one here is going to do anything about it, i fail to see why threads like this come up all the time.

if tethering is the "obvious point", why not remove the apps from the market? Seems like an obvious solution... but they don't, they lock bootloaders, and push OTA updates to detect rooting, not tethering...

 

[52brandon]

You can bluetooth tether on a stock unrooted phone...

nice. Didn't know that

 

[OneTenderRebel]

When I think about people who tether I think its........furthermore people who root are.........but in the end........there was that one time when........but I digress.

sent from the great depths of my phones internet (thanks Al Gore)

 

[cynnar]

Like I said I don't tether so Im not what you would call stealing. Since my tis do not include tether because it was not an issue due to d1 cannot do that,it is not offered as a service. So a person can't steal someone they have permission to.

Others can and probably are in violation of the tos. However they have permission to access the internet and therefore are not stealing as they have permission to.

Is that not right? Do we not have permission to access the internet? (Not asking about tos, or how it is being accessed)

If we don't have permission to access the internet then I will agree that we are all stealing. However you an I both pay for that service.

Yes you are right no one will really leave vzw. I never planned on it. I will do as I usually do and keep the phone iI got as long as I can.

Sent from OG Droid powered by Pete's GPA

 

[czerdrill]

you two are missing the obvious point, as is every other "freedom fighter" here. you two may not be tethering, but the fact of the matter is many rooters are. and that's why rooters are being targeted. if anyone here believes vzw is doing this to go after rooters who put a theme on their phone, they're very naive and have the "corporations are evil and out to get me" childish mentality. it's simply not the case. verizon is going after rooters because rooters are the ones who tether the most. and tethering is stealing a service from them.

to the person who said "if we don't matter why are these measures being taken"? again...because rooters are stealing a service. that doesn't mean that 5 people boycotting verizon is going to affect them. but no company is going to put up with even 1 person stealing a service from them. it doesn't mean vzw is shaking in their boots wondering what to do when the 30-something people who actually will boycott, do. we all know everyone here swearing up and down that "i'm leaving verizon!" and "if this happens, i'm canceling everything verizon i own and burning my verizon visor" or "i'm done with verizon, this is unfair, i'm going to sue if they do this" isn't going to do a thing. it's all talk, and verizon knows that. put your money where your mouth is, or obey the contract that you signed. you are not in control, vzw is, and that's just what it is. the only options are to accept that, or do something about it.

since we all know no one here is going to do anything about it, i fail to see why threads like this come up all the time.

if tethering is the "obvious point", why not remove the apps from the market? Seems like an obvious solution... but they don't, they lock bootloaders, and push OTA updates to detect rooting, not tethering...

if they are really doing this, which no one has any proof of except some article by p3droid with no sources except people who are "afraid of losing their job", i'm sure the tethering apps will be removed.

so you're really thinking that verizon is taking these measures to stop someone from removing bloatware? or theming? or overclocking? bloatware that the people who root, would never use regardless? what would be the point of undertaking something like this to prevent the removal of bloatware?

secondly, its not like you cant sideload a tethering app...removing it from the market is not going to stop someone who is saavy enough to tether in the first place would it? if you find out that pdanet is no longer available on the market, will you put on the sackcloth and say "woe is me" and beat your chest, or would you simply go here: android-wifi-tether - Wireless Tether for Root Users - Google Project Hosting

 

[MoeDaddy]

Regardless, I will not reward any company that keeps me from using my own property as I see fit. I don't tether, or use bootleg apps for free, or do anything illegal with my phones. I understand the need to protect content and the network but not when it tramples my rights. Just because I root doesn't mean I'm a criminal...

Their Network, Their Rules....

When you sign the contract you agree to the rights you have when access and using their Network.

Nowhere in their rules does it say I CANNOT root my device, with the apple ruling the law is on our side. They cannot shut off our service for doing as we like to our own devices, if u steal service or intellectual property sure they have grounds but for rooting and changing your own user experience no. I have more issue with the carrier side as they cannot tell us what we can do with our phones.

OEMs can lock down their phones and as of yet nobody has stepped up and brought this action to court, but when locked phones get left out for updates then their will be cause and hopefully action will follow. Until then we can speak with our wallets.

 

[czerdrill]

Like I said I don't tether so Im not what you would call stealing. Since my tis do not include tether because it was not an issue due to d1 cannot do that,it is not offered as a service. So a person can't steal someone they have permission to.

Others can and probably are in violation of the tos. However they have permission to access the internet and therefore are not stealing as they have permission to.

Is that not right? Do we not have permission to access the internet? (Not asking about tos, or how it is being accessed)

If we don't have permission to access the internet then I will agree that we are all stealing. However you an I both pay for that service.

Yes you are right no one will really leave vzw. I never planned on it. I will do as I usually do and keep the phone iI got as long as I can.

Sent from OG Droid powered by Pete's GPA

hey man, wasn't speaking specifically to you just quoted you to answer your question about why it's stealing. but again, your using the same baseless arguments that all tether-ers do:

1) It's my phone I can do what I want (lol no you can't...)
2) They cap me at 5GB, and I pay for unlimited (no...they don't)
3) They said the D1 is not capable of tethering anyway, so I'm not stealing (this is probably the most foolish one)

Just because they said you can't do it, and you do it, doesn't mean they're going to say "oh you big galoot, you've got us! Tether away!!" Come on...BTW your TOS does include tethering because your TOS is the same as anyone else's. There is no separate TOS for D1 users.

Oh and yes, no one is going to do anything about this. It's all internet talk, happens everyday with no outcome.

 

[MoeDaddy]

you two are missing the obvious point, as is every other "freedom fighter" here. you two may not be tethering, but the fact of the matter is many rooters are. and that's why rooters are being targeted. if anyone here believes vzw is doing this to go after rooters who put a theme on their phone, they're very naive and have the "corporations are evil and out to get me" childish mentality. it's simply not the case. verizon is going after rooters because rooters are the ones who tether the most. and tethering is stealing a service from them.

to the person who said "if we don't matter why are these measures being taken"? again...because rooters are stealing a service. that doesn't mean that 5 people boycotting verizon is going to affect them. but no company is going to put up with even 1 person stealing a service from them. it doesn't mean vzw is shaking in their boots wondering what to do when the 30-something people who actually will boycott, do. we all know everyone here swearing up and down that "i'm leaving verizon!" and "if this happens, i'm canceling everything verizon i own and burning my verizon visor" or "i'm done with verizon, this is unfair, i'm going to sue if they do this" isn't going to do a thing. it's all talk, and verizon knows that. put your money where your mouth is, or obey the contract that you signed. you are not in control, vzw is, and that's just what it is. the only options are to accept that, or do something about it.

since we all know no one here is going to do anything about it, i fail to see why threads like this come up all the time.

This is not the case for most of the corporate world, sorry but they do not change policy and spend large amounts of capital on a few people that steal their service. Look how long it took directv to shut down hackers, look at how long the RIAA let napster run. Giant companies only respond when they FEEL the pinch. SO if we are big enough to make them feel the pinch by our bad side we are big enough as a whole to hurt their wallets with our choices and voices...

 

[czerdrill]

Regardless, I will not reward any company that keeps me from using my own property as I see fit. I don't tether, or use bootleg apps for free, or do anything illegal with my phones. I understand the need to protect content and the network but not when it tramples my rights. Just because I root doesn't mean I'm a criminal...

Their Network, Their Rules....

When you sign the contract you agree to the rights you have when access and using their Network.

Nowhere in their rules does it say I CANNOT root my device, with the apple ruling the law is on our side. They cannot shut off our service for doing as we like to our own devices, if u steal service or intellectual property sure they have grounds but for rooting and changing your own user experience no. I have more issue with the carrier side as they cannot tell us what we can do with our phones.

OEMs can lock down their phones and as of yet nobody has stepped up and brought this action to court, but when locked phones get left out for updates then their will be cause and hopefully action will follow. Until then we can speak with our wallets.

Again...if they prove that your tethering after you rooted, then yes they can shut you down. If they take you to court and you prove that all you did was theme, then no they can't. The apple ruling did not give permission for people to violate their TOS and steal service. It's really not as difficult as people are making this. It's actual glaringly obvious and simple.

 

[czerdrill]

you two are missing the obvious point, as is every other "freedom fighter" here. you two may not be tethering, but the fact of the matter is many rooters are. and that's why rooters are being targeted. if anyone here believes vzw is doing this to go after rooters who put a theme on their phone, they're very naive and have the "corporations are evil and out to get me" childish mentality. it's simply not the case. verizon is going after rooters because rooters are the ones who tether the most. and tethering is stealing a service from them.

to the person who said "if we don't matter why are these measures being taken"? again...because rooters are stealing a service. that doesn't mean that 5 people boycotting verizon is going to affect them. but no company is going to put up with even 1 person stealing a service from them. it doesn't mean vzw is shaking in their boots wondering what to do when the 30-something people who actually will boycott, do. we all know everyone here swearing up and down that "i'm leaving verizon!" and "if this happens, i'm canceling everything verizon i own and burning my verizon visor" or "i'm done with verizon, this is unfair, i'm going to sue if they do this" isn't going to do a thing. it's all talk, and verizon knows that. put your money where your mouth is, or obey the contract that you signed. you are not in control, vzw is, and that's just what it is. the only options are to accept that, or do something about it.

since we all know no one here is going to do anything about it, i fail to see why threads like this come up all the time.

This is not the case for most of the corporate world, sorry but they do not change policy and spend large amounts of capital on a few people that steal their service. Look how long it took directv to shut down hackers, look at how long the RIAA let napster run. Giant companies only respond when they FEEL the pinch. SO if we are big enough to make them feel the pinch by our bad side we are big enough as a whole to hurt their wallets with our choices and voices...

There's a difference between being big enough and actually doing something about it. If thousands/millions boycotted VZW, then yes, they'd feel the pinch. My point is, the people here talking about it are not doing anything except...talking about it.

We know this forum is less then .01% of the total VZW customer base, and we know that the majority of people on this forum don't even root. You're just not big enough to have any effect on Verizon, especially when 100% of the people who do root are not even going to boycott. It's about as small a group as small groups go...

 

[cynnar]

Like I said I don't tether so Im not what you would call stealing. Since my tis do not include tether because it was not an issue due to d1 cannot do that,it is not offered as a service. So a person can't steal someone they have permission to.

Others can and probably are in violation of the tos. However they have permission to access the internet and therefore are not stealing as they have permission to.

Is that not right? Do we not have permission to access the internet? (Not asking about tos, or how it is being accessed)

If we don't have permission to access the internet then I will agree that we are all stealing. However you an I both pay for that service.

Yes you are right no one will really leave vzw. I never planned on it. I will do as I usually do and keep the phone iI got as long as I can.

Sent from OG Droid powered by Pete's GPA

hey man, wasn't speaking specifically to you just quoted you to answer your question.

But you are missing my point.

You cannot steal something you have permission to. No way you put it you cannot do it.

However you can be in violation of the tos. And there is a big difference.

I don't want you to take me the wrong way. None of his makes me mad, I just don't see how you can steal something you have permission to use.

Sent from OG Droid powered by Pete's GPA