P3Droid: Some Food for Thought - Bootloaders, Rooting, Manufacturers, and Carriers

[czerdrill]

Are all the people so insistent that this is stealing here for a reason?

Do they just like to argue? Are they Big Red employees? I assume that they people that don't use any other Open Source OS. (The same people probably are not decent enough to signal when making a lane change, not even 30% of the time...)

If we really wanted to STEAL Internet bandwidth we'd hop on our neighbor's WEP encrypted WiFi connection (as it takes <5 min to do), and not pay for our own home Internet service too.

I believe that we are paying A LOT, and should get our money's worth.

STEALING is taking an Open Source Community idea, and EXPLOITING IT by making it a service you provide and trying to charge extra for it when it wasn't your idea to begin with!

I guess this is all moot.

You're acting as if Google is scrambling to thwart Verizon's destruction of open source fundamentals or something. This is something that Google has agreed to as well. It's not like Verizon is hiding the fact that they don't want tethering from Google. Like Google calls VZW HQ daily saying "pleaaassseee give our users what they want!!! you're breaking our hearts!!!" It's about money. That's it. No more no less. You're using their network in a way that they do not want you to, and they want to and will charge you for it. Get over it, or move on to another carrier.

You're speaking with emotion, which makes no difference where it matters. I'm sorry, I know it's hard to come to grips with that but that's the truth.

I don't have to work for VZW to know that getting something I don't pay for is stealing. The "greedy", "unfair", "suing", "not right" stuff is just emotion.

 

[czerdrill]

Are all the people so insistent that this is stealing here for a reason?

Do they just like to argue? Are they Big Red employees? I assume that they people that don't use any other Open Source OS. (The same people probably are not decent enough to signal when making a lane change, not even 30% of the time...)

If we really wanted to STEAL Internet bandwidth we'd hop on our neighbor's WEP encrypted WiFi connection (as it takes <5 min to do), and not pay for our own home Internet service too.

I believe that we are paying A LOT, and should get our money's worth.

STEALING is taking an Open Source Community idea, and EXPLOITING IT by making it a service you provide and trying to charge extra for it when it wasn't your idea to begin with!

I guess this is all moot.

Its not an issue of moral code here. What everyone arguing for tethering refuses to acknowledge is that it is in direct violation if the ToS. Its plain as day. Whether we think that's right or wrong is absolutely irrelevant. Because it is in direct violation you are stealing data to use on other devices. Like I said ethics aside, its against the policies of VZW. There is no argument to be made otherwise. Certainly we are entitled to disagree with said policies, doesn't make it right though.

sent from the great depths of my phones internet (thanks Al Gore)

Exactly. All the emotional outbursts are emotional because you agreed to this before you were bound by this. There's no argument, except an emotional one. And the emotional one is irrelevant. The truth hurts, but that's the truth.

 

[the86d]

When I buy a phone that is sporting the Android name, it should be ANDROID.

An Open Source device that allows ALL features that I want to implement and are supported including customization, and complete root access.

If it can't be rooted, then how is that still Android? If it can't be customized and I can't remove Apps that are not to my liking and bloat my phone with crap interfaces that bog the phone down... I believe this ceases to be Android any longer. It is now "JUST ANOTHER VERIZON-LIMITED PHONE".

I needed to state.

 

[czerdrill]

When I buy a phone that is sporting the Android name, it should be ANDROID.

An Open Source device that allows ALL features that I want to implement and are supported including customization, and complete root access.

If it can't be rooted, then how is that still Android? If it can't be customized and I can't remove Apps that are not to my liking and bloat my phone with crap interfaces that bog the phone down... I believe this ceases to be Android any longer. It is now "JUST ANOTHER VERIZON-LIMITED PHONE".

I needed to state.

Google decides what "android" is, not you or me. And Google is clearly ok with allowing this. I've always argued that Android is not open source like everyone here seems to think it is. I don't think it ever was, but saying "Open source!" seems to make people feel important or something. This is business, it's always been business, and it'll always be business. If you're paying for something, the person you're paying is in control, not you. Google is not some philanthropic company who's final goal is to make their customers happy at the cost of profit. I think some people romanticize Google a little bit too much.

It's about money. Always has been, always will be. Android is no different, and android is not and has never been "open" source like everyone here likes to repeat over and over.

 

[the86d]

Its not an issue of moral code here. What everyone arguing for tethering refuses to acknowledge is that it is in direct violation if the ToS. Its plain as day. Whether we think that's right or wrong is absolutely irrelevant. Because it is in direct violation you are stealing data to use on other devices. Like I said ethics aside, its against the policies of VZW. There is no argument to be made otherwise. Certainly we are entitled to disagree with said policies, doesn't make it right though.

I don't recall seeing this in my contract I signed up for, so they added it after I signed up? I don't remember even getting a copy before leaving the store... meh hehehee

 

[OneTenderRebel]

When I buy a phone that is sporting the Android name, it should be ANDROID.

An Open Source device that allows ALL features that I want to implement and are supported including customization, and complete root access.

If it can't be rooted, then how is that still Android? If it can't be customized and I can't remove Apps that are not to my liking and bloat my phone with crap interfaces that bog the phone down... I believe this ceases to be Android any longer. It is now "JUST ANOTHER VERIZON-LIMITED PHONE".

I needed to state.

Yeah, I have said before that if they do remove rooting (giant rumor for now) I would atleast like to have the ability to delete anything that is preinstalled. I would say confidently the biggest reason people root is to remove bloatware.

sent from the great depths of my phones internet (thanks Al Gore)

 

[TheOldFart]

Are all the people so insistent that this is stealing here for a reason?

Do they just like to argue? Are they Big Red employees? I assume that they people that don't use any other Open Source OS. (The same people probably are not decent enough to signal when making a lane change, not even 30% of the time...)

If we really wanted to STEAL Internet bandwidth we'd hop on our neighbor's WEP encrypted WiFi connection (as it takes <5 min to do), and not pay for our own home Internet service too.

I believe that we are paying A LOT, and should get our money's worth.

STEALING is taking an Open Source Community idea, and EXPLOITING IT by making it a service you provide and trying to charge extra for it when it wasn't your idea to begin with!

I guess this is all moot.

Did you ever think that they are just people who believe that signing an agreement means that they should have the honesty to abide by that agreement?

So now it is Verizon who is stealing. Did they violate a patent on tethering by charging for it? So you think that it is OK for you to violate a contract, but not OK for Verizon to do something that is not in violation of anything?

 

[czerdrill]

Its not an issue of moral code here. What everyone arguing for tethering refuses to acknowledge is that it is in direct violation if the ToS. Its plain as day. Whether we think that's right or wrong is absolutely irrelevant. Because it is in direct violation you are stealing data to use on other devices. Like I said ethics aside, its against the policies of VZW. There is no argument to be made otherwise. Certainly we are entitled to disagree with said policies, doesn't make it right though.

I don't recall seeing this in my contract I signed up for, so they added it after I signed up? I don't remember even getting a copy before leaving the store... meh hehehee

It's been in there forever. If they add something to the contract, they have to give you time to refuse to accept the changes and opt out. So no matter what, you agreed to it, whether you read it or not, or saw it or not. It's there in black and white. Tethering is not allowed on their data plans unless you sign up for a tethering plan. Is it fair? Maybe not. Is it right? Maybe not. Does it matter? Nope, not at all.

 

[Diab210]

Its not an issue of moral code here. What everyone arguing for tethering refuses to acknowledge is that it is in direct violation if the ToS. Its plain as day. Whether we think that's right or wrong is absolutely irrelevant. Because it is in direct violation you are stealing data to use on other devices. Like I said ethics aside, its against the policies of VZW. There is no argument to be made otherwise. Certainly we are entitled to disagree with said policies, doesn't make it right though.

I don't recall seeing this in my contract I signed up for, so they added it after I signed up? I don't remember even getting a copy before leaving the store... meh hehehee

It's been in there forever. If they add something to the contract, they have to give you time to refuse to accept the changes and opt out. So no matter what, you agreed to it, whether you read it or not, or saw it or not. It's there in black and white. Tethering is not allowed on their data plans unless you sign up for a tethering plan. Is it fair? Maybe not. Is it right? Maybe not. Does it matter? Nope, not at all.

Czerdrill hits it on the head. It doesn't matter if you personally feel tethering is right or wrong - it's against your agreement with Verizon (or any other carrier for that matter). You lose.

Removing the bloatware probably goes against a contract signed somewhere too. If you're phone comes with it stock theres probably a reason for it and its probably money. X company pays verizon to preload their app on the new android phone. X company is paying for Verizon's service to promote whatever that app may be. If you rip it off your system X company wasted money and is probably yelling at Verizon for allowing you to remove it one way or another.

Does it suck? Yep. A lot actually. Is there anything I can do about it? Kiss my overclocked and themed phone good-bye.

 

[hemorrdroid]

Anyone who thinks that after you pay for unlimited data, that you should then be charged to tether that data, you are Verizon's tool.

Congratulations, they have brainwashed you into thinking that because they said it, it must be so.

It is they who are stealing, by charging twice for the same thing.

I bet if your electric company sent out a new agreement saying that you will pay $.13 per kwh, and a $20 monthly fee to use it for your air conditioner, you would throw a fit, you would say they are crazy, that you wouldn't pay that, that you'd see them in court. Don't say you wouldn't.

If someone wants to use 30GB a month, who gives a s***, pretty sure that is less than unlimited.

I tether on occasion when i am out, but i have never gone over 2gb in a month, and my largest data usage comes from my phone, maybe 3% from my laptop.

Did i sign an agreement saying i wouldn't do it? Yep, and if they enforce me paying for it, i would simply stop using tethering. BUT, that doesn't change the morality of the charge in the first place.

 

[Backnblack]

Regardless, I will not reward any company that keeps me from using my own property as I see fit. I don't tether, or use bootleg apps for free, or do anything illegal with my phones. I understand the need to protect content and the network but not when it tramples my rights. Just because I root doesn't mean I'm a criminal...

Their Network, Their Rules....

When you sign the contract you agree to the rights you have when access and using their Network.

Nowhere in their rules does it say I CANNOT root my device, with the apple ruling the law is on our side. They cannot shut off our service for doing as we like to our own devices, if u steal service or intellectual property sure they have grounds but for rooting and changing your own user experience no. I have more issue with the carrier side as they cannot tell us what we can do with our phones.

OEMs can lock down their phones and as of yet nobody has stepped up and brought this action to court, but when locked phones get left out for updates then their will be cause and hopefully action will follow. Until then we can speak with our wallets.

Nothing says they have to allow a device on their network which has been modified to bypass any services that you have not paid for.

The Android Community has brought this on themselves, It's that simple. But there are those who fail to see that and think they have a "right" to do whatever they want.

 

[czerdrill]

Anyone who thinks that after you pay for unlimited data, that you should then be charged to tether that data, you are Verizon's tool.

Congratulations, they have brainwashed you into thinking that because they said it, it must be so.

It is they who are stealing, by charging twice for the same thing.

I bet if your electric company sent out a new agreement saying that you will pay $.13 per kwh, and a $20 monthly fee to use it for your air conditioner, you would throw a fit, you would say they are crazy, that you wouldn't pay that, that you'd see them in court. Don't say you wouldn't.

If someone wants to use 30GB a month, who gives a s***, pretty sure that is less than unlimited.

I tether on occasion when i am out, but i have never gone over 2gb in a month, and my largest data usage comes from my phone, maybe 3% from my laptop.

Did i sign an agreement saying i wouldn't do it? Yep, and if they enforce me paying for it, i would simply stop using tethering. BUT, that doesn't change the morality of the charge in the first place.

anyone that thinks that they are owed something that is prohibited by an agreement that they signed is an even bigger tool.

so you're saying if your electric company told you upfront that it costs $20/month for your AC, and you agreed and signed an agreement, that you would be outraged when you're hit with the $20 bill? LOL...k.

 

[czerdrill]

Their Network, Their Rules....

When you sign the contract you agree to the rights you have when access and using their Network.

Nowhere in their rules does it say I CANNOT root my device, with the apple ruling the law is on our side. They cannot shut off our service for doing as we like to our own devices, if u steal service or intellectual property sure they have grounds but for rooting and changing your own user experience no. I have more issue with the carrier side as they cannot tell us what we can do with our phones.

OEMs can lock down their phones and as of yet nobody has stepped up and brought this action to court, but when locked phones get left out for updates then their will be cause and hopefully action will follow. Until then we can speak with our wallets.

Nothing says they have to allow a device on their network which has been modified to bypass any services that you have not paid for.

The Android Community has brought this on themselves, It's that simple. But there are those who fail to see that and think they have a "right" to do whatever they want.

Exactly, all the "I can dos what i wants" people are now upset because they actually can't do whatever they want. And their only venue to whine now is DF.

 

[cynnar]

I don't think that when Google said open source they meant complete free reign on your phone. We all know Motorola and vzw sure do no want that. I think it was thought that the development would only be on apps, maybe a few system tweaks.

Like any and everything else electronic there are the few who vision far more than what the limits are, and make it work the way they want to. They get a fanbase, turns into loyal followers, and gets lots of attention.

This is still a young community. I have seen this exact same thing happen with the PSP.

Our devs might say that is it we are done. IMO when you tell someone (as smart as our devs are) they can't do something, well it just makes them try that much harder.

I do think if we want our devs to think about continuing their work support them. Every one of them do this for free. The least we can do is send a donation there way.

Sent from OG Droid powered by Pete's GPA

 

[Its TwiX]

Like I said I don't tether so Im not what you would call stealing. Since my tis do not include tether because it was not an issue due to d1 cannot do that,it is not offered as a service. So a person can't steal someone they have permission to.

Others can and probably are in violation of the tos. However they have permission to access the internet and therefore are not stealing as they have permission to.

Is that not right? Do we not have permission to access the internet? (Not asking about tos, or how it is being accessed)

If we don't have permission to access the internet then I will agree that we are all stealing. However you an I both pay for that service.

Yes you are right no one will really leave vzw. I never planned on it. I will do as I usually do and keep the phone iI got as long as I can.

Sent from OG Droid powered by Pete's GPA

Your ToS is subject to change at any time.

Anyone saying they payed for whatever data they wanted so they can use it however they want is insane. The data plan clearly states prohibited uses on their ToS. The reason why you pay for tether is because of the device being used for data. Your phone, besides those people that for some reason torrent on their phone all the time... Does not suck up that much bandwidth. But have you ever VPNd at home? Have you tried to do something else while doing that? If you have you'll know that is doesn't work well. The things people do on their laptops hog bandwidth like crazy. For this reason, you will never see tethering for free or added into your plan. It would be like making a call on At&t... But with data.

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