P3Droid: Some Food for Thought - Bootloaders, Rooting, Manufacturers, and Carriers

[TheSwaggeR]

There is no emotion in my fingers, voice, or head. What I support is what I support that is justified as ok and right. No you won't get my support for your piracy and tethering abuse. But you dam sure will get my support for rooting, customizing and other areas as long as you don't abuse it and lie about it.

My points are relevant. If you want me to go even further in-depth to justify my reasons then I will gladly type up a huge report and pick and pull out every ToS, put our perspective against it and show what is supported, not supported, or does not mention any clarification or association in any category for that area.

There is no mix-up in the sense of legality because I mention nothing about supporting or using anything that is pirating or stealing or anything for that matter. You can drop that issue.

If I feel ripped off, I'm not going to walk away hurt. I'm going to step my big-a$$ foot down and speak my mind. I don't just up and quit. There are plenty of other people who feel there are just too much strictness on these phones. If we paid for the phone, we can do whatever we wish (again as long as it isn't against pirating and such). It IS our phone. This isn't a car company, bud. This isn't a lease. We bought the phone, we are entitled to do what we please to it because when paid for it is 100% ours. Not 99%. Not 50%. But 100%. You keep thinking in terms of leases and such. There is a difference between Our phone being ours and services. Configuration of the phone, which is in ToS by the way, simply means anything that alters the SERVICES (which has NOTHING to do with themes and such). You root, you brick, you take back, that's a voided warranty but not a cancellation on your service.

I think your points are irrelevant. And like I said, VZW's site is just a click away. I'm sure they could use another member to excite with news about nothing more than a new make and model coming out.

I can go on and on. You pick.

 

[Martin030908]

VZW should just do away with their 'unlimited' claim for data. Put caps and allow tethering. Just charge for overages.

I understand that tethering is against the TOS, that tethering takes more bandwidth... but bottom line is it's only data. Data which is supposed to be unlimited, so it really shouldn't matter how the data is used... the tethering fee is just another way for VZW to gouge customers for something they've already paid for. I understand it's considered an additional feature... but it's a scam IMO. I don't think it's right at all that VZW charges for tethering data when data is supposed to be unlimited... but 'tethering' is in the TOS and unfortunately that means VZW wins the argument. Not fair by any means, but it is what it is.

... and tethering is the hot topic here, but it's not the sole purpose behind these crackdowns.

 

[B-boy™]

I actually have enjoyed reading all the posts in here.. a lot of great points are made, as well as a lot of complaining, too. Some of the analogies are very thought out and make perfect sense... I don't even tether, never needed to.. I only rooted for customization caue I hated the white statusbar... So after reading this thread, I agree with both sides.. the ones that tether and use >5mb or whatever have a valid point IMO because a lot of us signed a TOS before tethering was out there.. I don't know all the legalities or the 7 syllable words like some of you but I analyze things and I honestly don't think there is anything to worry about.. didn't eveyone freak out at Y2K?... One of my friends moved to Colorado, in the middle of nowhere, with a whole lot of rice and canned food and barrels of gas and a generator... So although I don't have a 100% thorough back-knowledge into all the details of this issue, I sure haven't had VZ contact me for any reason nor have I read any definites on it.. P3 probably has some pretty good facts or trustworthy people telling him this stuff, but that doesn't mean it's set in stone or has even been started...plus, VZ and all others involved aren't stupid, they'll more than likely create a solution that everyone benefits from... Like I said already, I don't have all the info like a lot of you, so don't "quote" me and tell me how stupid I am... lol.. I just know that we all have our own tidbits of knowledge to some degree and a lot of good info has been shared... thanks to everyone for giving me some good reading material while I'm in the bathroom..

 

[czerdrill]

There is no emotion in my fingers, voice, or head. What I support is what I support that is justified as ok and right. No you won't get my support for your piracy and tethering abuse. But you dam sure will get my support for rooting, customizing and other areas as long as you don't abuse it and lie about it.

My points are relevant. If you want me to go even further in-depth to justify my reasons then I will gladly type up a huge report and pick and pull out every ToS, put our perspective against it and show what is supported, not supported, or does not mention any clarification or association in any category for that area.

There is no mix-up in the sense of legality because I mention nothing about supporting or using anything that is pirating or stealing or anything for that matter. You can drop that issue.

If I feel ripped off, I'm not going to walk away hurt. I'm going to step my big-a$$ foot down and speak my mind. I don't just up and quit. There are plenty of other people who feel there are just too much strictness on these phones. If we paid for the phone, we can do whatever we wish (again as long as it isn't against pirating and such). It IS our phone. This isn't a car company, bud. This isn't a lease. We bought the phone, we are entitled to do what we please to it because when paid for it is 100% ours. Not 99%. Not 50%. But 100%. You keep thinking in terms of leases and such. There is a difference between Our phone being ours and services. Configuration of the phone, which is in ToS by the way, simply means anything that alters the SERVICES (which has NOTHING to do with themes and such). You root, you brick, you take back, that's a voided warranty but not a cancellation on your service.

I think your points are irrelevant. And like I said, VZW's site is just a click away. I'm sure they could use another member to excite with news about nothing more than a new make and model coming out.

I can go on and on. You pick.

so...do you feel ripped off or not? if so, why are you here? i would love to hear the status of the lawsuit you've opened. can you provide the docket number and state you filed it in?

if you don't feel ripped off...again...why are you here?

 

[SquireSCA]

you two are missing the obvious point, as is every other "freedom fighter" here. you two may not be tethering, but the fact of the matter is many rooters are. and that's why rooters are being targeted. if anyone here believes vzw is doing this to go after rooters who put a theme on their phone, they're very naive and have the "corporations are evil and out to get me" childish mentality. it's simply not the case. verizon is going after rooters because rooters are the ones who tether the most. and tethering is stealing a service from them.

to the person who said "if we don't matter why are these measures being taken"? again...because rooters are stealing a service. that doesn't mean that 5 people boycotting verizon is going to affect them. but no company is going to put up with even 1 person stealing a service from them. it doesn't mean vzw is shaking in their boots wondering what to do when the 30-something people who actually will boycott, do. we all know everyone here swearing up and down that "i'm leaving verizon!" and "if this happens, i'm canceling everything verizon i own and burning my verizon visor" or "i'm done with verizon, this is unfair, i'm going to sue if they do this" isn't going to do a thing. it's all talk, and verizon knows that. put your money where your mouth is, or obey the contract that you signed. you are not in control, vzw is, and that's just what it is. the only options are to accept that, or do something about it.

since we all know no one here is going to do anything about it, i fail to see why threads like this come up all the time.

if tethering is the "obvious point", why not remove the apps from the market? Seems like an obvious solution... but they don't, they lock bootloaders, and push OTA updates to detect rooting, not tethering...

if they are really doing this, which no one has any proof of except some article by p3droid with no sources except people who are "afraid of losing their job", i'm sure the tethering apps will be removed.

so you're really thinking that verizon is taking these measures to stop someone from removing bloatware? or theming? or overclocking? bloatware that the people who root, would never use regardless? what would be the point of undertaking something like this to prevent the removal of bloatware?

secondly, its not like you cant sideload a tethering app...removing it from the market is not going to stop someone who is saavy enough to tether in the first place would it? if you find out that pdanet is no longer available on the market, will you put on the sackcloth and say "woe is me" and beat your chest, or would you simply go here: android-wifi-tether - Wireless Tether for Root Users - Google Project Hosting

How long have you worked for VZW?

Nobody cheerleads for a corporation who does not have some sort of skin in the game...

We all pay for unlimited internet, we therefore cannot be stealing what we paid for.

90% of my internet use on my DX, is over my Wifi. So I would like them to reimburse Comcast for that.

 

[czerdrill]

if tethering is the "obvious point", why not remove the apps from the market? Seems like an obvious solution... but they don't, they lock bootloaders, and push OTA updates to detect rooting, not tethering...

if they are really doing this, which no one has any proof of except some article by p3droid with no sources except people who are "afraid of losing their job", i'm sure the tethering apps will be removed.

so you're really thinking that verizon is taking these measures to stop someone from removing bloatware? or theming? or overclocking? bloatware that the people who root, would never use regardless? what would be the point of undertaking something like this to prevent the removal of bloatware?

secondly, its not like you cant sideload a tethering app...removing it from the market is not going to stop someone who is saavy enough to tether in the first place would it? if you find out that pdanet is no longer available on the market, will you put on the sackcloth and say "woe is me" and beat your chest, or would you simply go here: android-wifi-tether - Wireless Tether for Root Users - Google Project Hosting

How long have you worked for VZW?

Nobody cheerleads for a corporation who does not have some sort of skin in the game...

We all pay for unlimited internet, we therefore cannot be stealing what we paid for.

90% of my internet use on my DX, is over my Wifi. So I would like them to reimburse Comcast for that.

such foolish questions. yes, because i think verizon is not wrong for enforcing the contract i signed i must work for them.

and the fact that you say "we all paid for unlimited internet" is laughable (and sad). please show me the provisions of the smartphone data plan that you signed that says "this includes unlimited internet. you paid for it, so feel free to cancel your ISP because we have no provided unlimited internet for you at the low low price of $30/month"...seriously?? unlimited internet?? lol...k.

i don't drink and drive, and i agree that i should get arrested if i do. clearly i work for my state's government and moonlight at the DMV.

 

[SquireSCA]

hey man, wasn't speaking specifically to you just quoted you to answer your question.

But you are missing my point.

You cannot steal something you have permission to. No way you put it you cannot do it.

However you can be in violation of the tos. And there is a big difference.

I don't want you to take me the wrong way. None of his makes me mad, I just don't see how you can steal something you have permission to use.

Sent from OG Droid powered by Pete's GPA

Please let me know why you think you have permission to tether without paying?

So if tomorrow, in an attempt to help improve their network, they said that on the "unlimited" data plans, you could no longer stream video... that it was causing too much strain on their network and so streaming video is no longer allowed... You would be fine with that?

Because they could do that if they wanted and there is nothing you could do about it. Also in the ToS is a provision that it is subject to change without notice. So the very document that you keep clinging to that "makes everything legit", also allows them to block all video streaming if they wanted on your "unlimited" plan.

So if they did that, would you support it because the ToS that you signed says that they can make changes without notice?

And if you said screw that and installed an app so that you could watch YouTube, wouldn't you be stealing?

The problem with you, is that you don't care about tethering, so you defend VZW and wrap yourself in a blanket of self-righteousness. But as soon as they change something that you do care about, I am betting $20 that you are here whining with the rest of us. LOL

 

[pc747]

This is where the android community needs to police our own. We obviously have a problem where people are abusing the systems to a point that carriers feel they need to take action. SO I think tethering apps should have something that cut you off where a user set it to a max of 2gbs and after that you are done. The other thing, which will be a stretch, but if we get with assurion or some one and just come up with an insurance plane for root users. If you bricked your phone, just be straight with them and send it in, you wont be penalized or outted to the carrier. You pay a 25 dollar deductible ther first time and 50 the second. If they are able to recover your phone they will give you 50% back (because if they are able to recover it they are just gonna put it back in the system as a CLNR).
My point is instead of complaining to vzw and other carriers about their policies maybe we start hammering those that are abusing the system and making all the trouble for the rest of us.

 

[Martin030908]

if they are really doing this, which no one has any proof of except some article by p3droid with no sources except people who are "afraid of losing their job", i'm sure the tethering apps will be removed.

so you're really thinking that verizon is taking these measures to stop someone from removing bloatware? or theming? or overclocking? bloatware that the people who root, would never use regardless? what would be the point of undertaking something like this to prevent the removal of bloatware?

secondly, its not like you cant sideload a tethering app...removing it from the market is not going to stop someone who is saavy enough to tether in the first place would it? if you find out that pdanet is no longer available on the market, will you put on the sackcloth and say "woe is me" and beat your chest, or would you simply go here: android-wifi-tether - Wireless Tether for Root Users - Google Project Hosting

How long have you worked for VZW?

Nobody cheerleads for a corporation who does not have some sort of skin in the game...

We all pay for unlimited internet, we therefore cannot be stealing what we paid for.

90% of my internet use on my DX, is over my Wifi. So I would like them to reimburse Comcast for that.

such foolish questions. yes, because i think verizon is not wrong for enforcing the contract i signed i must work for them.

and the fact that you say "we all paid for unlimited internet" is laughable (and sad). please show me the provisions of the smartphone data plan that you signed that says "this includes unlimited internet. you paid for it, so feel free to cancel your ISP because we have no provided unlimited internet for you at the low low price of $30/month"...seriously?? unlimited internet?? lol...k.

i don't drink and drive, and i agree that i should get arrested if i do. clearly i work for my state's government and moonlight at the DMV.

i'm in agreement with you that the TOS are what they are, and getting bent out of shape over it is not worth it. I'm not claiming VZW is doing anything illegal... but you're splitting hairs breaking it into data vs. internet. The internet on our devices is accessed thru data usage... it's not like there's a separate stream for the internet vs apps and what not. VZW just needs to do away with their 'unlimited' claims. We're all aware it's not unlimited.

 

[SquireSCA]

See you jump on the tether again. I am talking about stealing. And stealing means you take the data without permission. You pay for permission to take the data.

Stealing not tethering.

And if you do tether you still have permission to access the data. Even though you may be in direct violation with the tos.

You just cannot simply steal the data that you have permission to get.

Do you get put in jail after you buy something and leave the store?

If you the same product wrongly you might, but you didn't steal it.

Sent from OG Droid powered by Pete's GPA

His point is that you are paying for that "food" and the ToS says that you can only eat that "food" with chop sticks. If you eat it with a fork or spoon, then you are stealing because they charge extra for you to eat that same "food" with a different utensil.

 

[czerdrill]

But you are missing my point.

You cannot steal something you have permission to. No way you put it you cannot do it.

However you can be in violation of the tos. And there is a big difference.

I don't want you to take me the wrong way. None of his makes me mad, I just don't see how you can steal something you have permission to use.

Sent from OG Droid powered by Pete's GPA

Please let me know why you think you have permission to tether without paying?

So if tomorrow, in an attempt to help improve their network, they said that on the "unlimited" data plans, you could no longer stream video... that it was causing too much strain on their network and so streaming video is no longer allowed... You would be fine with that?

Because they could do that if they wanted and there is nothing you could do about it. Also in the ToS is a provision that it is subject to change without notice. So the very document that you keep clinging to that "makes everything legit", also allows them to block all video streaming if they wanted on your "unlimited" plan.

So if they did that, would you support it because the ToS that you signed says that they can make changes without notice?

And if you said screw that and installed an app so that you could watch YouTube, wouldn't you be stealing?

The problem with you, is that you don't care about tethering, so you defend VZW and wrap yourself in a blanket of self-righteousness. But as soon as they change something that you do care about, I am betting $20 that you are here whining with the rest of us. LOL

you do realize that when they change the TOS, they don't notify me of those changes by sending men in suits holding pepper spray, machine guns and crudely constructed bombs, right? you do also realize that you have the right to opt out of those changes, without paying an ETF, if you disagree...right? again, you're saying that you can agree to something that you have every legal right to back out of, and then violate it knowingly and not expect it to be enforced. No...really?

 

[czerdrill]

See you jump on the tether again. I am talking about stealing. And stealing means you take the data without permission. You pay for permission to take the data.

Stealing not tethering.

And if you do tether you still have permission to access the data. Even though you may be in direct violation with the tos.

You just cannot simply steal the data that you have permission to get.

Do you get put in jail after you buy something and leave the store?

If you the same product wrongly you might, but you didn't steal it.

Sent from OG Droid powered by Pete's GPA

His point is that you are paying for that "food" and the ToS says that you can only eat that "food" with chop sticks. If you eat it with a fork or spoon, then you are stealing because they charge extra for you to eat that same "food" with a different utensil.

not these dumb analogies again. here's what i'm actually saying, try to keep up:

"hey here's some food, if you use a fork we'll charge you"
"oh really? that's cool no problem!!! i agree completely" (proceeds to use fork)
"ok we're gonna have to charge you"
"but but but...whaaaa whaaa"...whining ensues.

 

[Martin030908]

... it's been said many many times in many many discussions... the rooting/hacking community is small in comparison to the whole of Android users.... this crack down on rooting and ROMing isn't just a tethering issue (because by everyone's logic we're too small in number to truly affect the majority of users) ... there's more to it.

... or there's more of us then anyone cares to admit

 

[TheOldFart]

This thread is even more useless than the when is the Thunderbolt coming out ones were. Yes, I know, I posted to it a couple of times giving my opinion and have read about 1/5 of the posts, but that doesn't make it any less useless. Not saying that anyone should stop posting, just that it is completely useless.

 

[czerdrill]

How long have you worked for VZW?

Nobody cheerleads for a corporation who does not have some sort of skin in the game...

We all pay for unlimited internet, we therefore cannot be stealing what we paid for.

90% of my internet use on my DX, is over my Wifi. So I would like them to reimburse Comcast for that.

such foolish questions. yes, because i think verizon is not wrong for enforcing the contract i signed i must work for them.

and the fact that you say "we all paid for unlimited internet" is laughable (and sad). please show me the provisions of the smartphone data plan that you signed that says "this includes unlimited internet. you paid for it, so feel free to cancel your ISP because we have no provided unlimited internet for you at the low low price of $30/month"...seriously?? unlimited internet?? lol...k.

i don't drink and drive, and i agree that i should get arrested if i do. clearly i work for my state's government and moonlight at the DMV.

i'm in agreement with you that the TOS are what they are, and getting bent out of shape over it is not worth it. I'm not claiming VZW is doing anything illegal... but you're splitting hairs breaking it into data vs. internet. The internet on our devices is accessed thru data usage... it's not like there's a separate stream for the internet vs apps and what not. VZW just needs to do away with their 'unlimited' claims. We're all aware it's not unlimited.

yes and i agree with you like i stated above that what they're doing sucks. we shouldnt have to pay for tethering because data is data. but...we agree that if we want tethering we'll pay for it. there is no point in complaining about it after the fact. they can't force you to sign a contract with them, and they cant force you to stay with them if they change the TOS mid-contract. they don't have one up on you, you dont have one up on them. if you feel you are being ripped off by a new policy, you can leave. if you feel you are being ripped off by an existing policy, you can also leave. what you can't do is violate your existing policy which you signed, and then label them as tyrants and evil because they enforced that violation.