P3Droid: Some Food for Thought - Bootloaders, Rooting, Manufacturers, and Carriers

[TheSwaggeR]

There is no emotion in my fingers, voice, or head. What I support is what I support that is justified as ok and right. No you won't get my support for your piracy and tethering abuse. But you dam sure will get my support for rooting, customizing and other areas as long as you don't abuse it and lie about it.

My points are relevant. If you want me to go even further in-depth to justify my reasons then I will gladly type up a huge report and pick and pull out every ToS, put our perspective against it and show what is supported, not supported, or does not mention any clarification or association in any category for that area.

There is no mix-up in the sense of legality because I mention nothing about supporting or using anything that is pirating or stealing or anything for that matter. You can drop that issue.

If I feel ripped off, I'm not going to walk away hurt. I'm going to step my big-a$$ foot down and speak my mind. I don't just up and quit. There are plenty of other people who feel there are just too much strictness on these phones. If we paid for the phone, we can do whatever we wish (again as long as it isn't against pirating and such). It IS our phone. This isn't a car company, bud. This isn't a lease. We bought the phone, we are entitled to do what we please to it because when paid for it is 100% ours. Not 99%. Not 50%. But 100%. You keep thinking in terms of leases and such. There is a difference between Our phone being ours and services. Configuration of the phone, which is in ToS by the way, simply means anything that alters the SERVICES (which has NOTHING to do with themes and such). You root, you brick, you take back, that's a voided warranty but not a cancellation on your service.

I think your points are irrelevant. And like I said, VZW's site is just a click away. I'm sure they could use another member to excite with news about nothing more than a new make and model coming out.

I can go on and on. You pick.

so...do you feel ripped off or not? if so, why are you here? i would love to hear the status of the lawsuit you've opened. can you provide the docket number and state you filed it in?

if you don't feel ripped off...again...why are you here?

I can't feel ripped off when the action hasn't taken place yet, but is in the works to be. When that day comes when they work against us is when you'll be seeing the lot of us stepping our foot down. I'll be glad to provide any info on such lawsuit if anything gets out into the wild against us.

I'm here because I am not satisfied with a regular phone. I'm here because I want to make a difference in the community and strive to do what I can. I help, I provide help, I provide solutions. Heck, MANY of us provide solutions that the VZW employees can't even conjure up with a single brain cell. I've seen many post that would have someone stating "a VZW representative told me to do it like this to fix this or that and it isn't right!" Yet someone, from this forum, comes up with a simple, perfect solution and helps fix that person's issue(s) with their phone.

There are a LOT of brilliant minds here, yet VZW is hiring a lot of others that are quick to say "do factory reset!" when that isn't even the solution to the problem.

I'm here because I love the work this community has done and provided for others to learn, to use, to enjoy, and to share among others as well.

But when they make hints to shut the door on us like that, when they are the ones who opened the door for us awhile ago, then that's just screaming FOUL in every aspect.

 

[czerdrill]

There is no emotion in my fingers, voice, or head. What I support is what I support that is justified as ok and right. No you won't get my support for your piracy and tethering abuse. But you dam sure will get my support for rooting, customizing and other areas as long as you don't abuse it and lie about it.

My points are relevant. If you want me to go even further in-depth to justify my reasons then I will gladly type up a huge report and pick and pull out every ToS, put our perspective against it and show what is supported, not supported, or does not mention any clarification or association in any category for that area.

There is no mix-up in the sense of legality because I mention nothing about supporting or using anything that is pirating or stealing or anything for that matter. You can drop that issue.

If I feel ripped off, I'm not going to walk away hurt. I'm going to step my big-a$$ foot down and speak my mind. I don't just up and quit. There are plenty of other people who feel there are just too much strictness on these phones. If we paid for the phone, we can do whatever we wish (again as long as it isn't against pirating and such). It IS our phone. This isn't a car company, bud. This isn't a lease. We bought the phone, we are entitled to do what we please to it because when paid for it is 100% ours. Not 99%. Not 50%. But 100%. You keep thinking in terms of leases and such. There is a difference between Our phone being ours and services. Configuration of the phone, which is in ToS by the way, simply means anything that alters the SERVICES (which has NOTHING to do with themes and such). You root, you brick, you take back, that's a voided warranty but not a cancellation on your service.

I think your points are irrelevant. And like I said, VZW's site is just a click away. I'm sure they could use another member to excite with news about nothing more than a new make and model coming out.

I can go on and on. You pick.

so...do you feel ripped off or not? if so, why are you here? i would love to hear the status of the lawsuit you've opened. can you provide the docket number and state you filed it in?

if you don't feel ripped off...again...why are you here?

I can't feel ripped off when the action hasn't taken place yet, but is in the works to be. When that day comes when they work against us is when you'll be seeing the lot of us stepping our foot down. I'll be glad to provide any info on such lawsuit if anything gets out into the wild against us.

I'm here because I am not satisfied with a regular phone. I'm here because I want to make a difference in the community and strive to do what I can. I help, I provide help, I provide solutions. Heck, MANY of us provide solutions that the VZW employees can't even conjure up with a single brain cell. I've seen many post that would have someone stating "a VZW representative told me to do it like this to fix this or that and it isn't right!" Yet someone, from this forum, comes up with a simple, perfect solution and helps fix that person's issue(s) with their phone.

There are a LOT of brilliant minds here, yet VZW is hiring a lot of others that are quick to say "do factory reset!" when that isn't even the solution to the problem.

I'm here because I love the work this community has done and provided for others to learn, to use, to enjoy, and to share among others as well.

But when they make hints to shut the door on us like that, when they are the ones who opened the door for us awhile ago, then that's just screaming FOUL in every aspect.

and you know what? if that day comes, and you do provide that lawsuit info, i will absolutely respect you because your not sitting there whining about it. sadly, that's not the case with 99% of the rest of the posters here. you would actually do something about it, they just have entitlement issues.

 

[SquireSCA]

I don't recall seeing this in my contract I signed up for, so they added it after I signed up? I don't remember even getting a copy before leaving the store... meh hehehee

It's been in there forever. If they add something to the contract, they have to give you time to refuse to accept the changes and opt out. So no matter what, you agreed to it, whether you read it or not, or saw it or not. It's there in black and white. Tethering is not allowed on their data plans unless you sign up for a tethering plan. Is it fair? Maybe not. Is it right? Maybe not. Does it matter? Nope, not at all.

Czerdrill hits it on the head. It doesn't matter if you personally feel tethering is right or wrong - it's against your agreement with Verizon (or any other carrier for that matter). You lose.

Removing the bloatware probably goes against a contract signed somewhere too. If you're phone comes with it stock theres probably a reason for it and its probably money. X company pays verizon to preload their app on the new android phone. X company is paying for Verizon's service to promote whatever that app may be. If you rip it off your system X company wasted money and is probably yelling at Verizon for allowing you to remove it one way or another.

Does it suck? Yep. A lot actually. Is there anything I can do about it? Kiss my overclocked and themed phone good-bye.

That was my point. The guys who don't tether want to make it all about tethering because in their minds it absolves them of their part in this.

Which says that you cannot root, remove the pre-installed software that VZW was contractually obligated to put on there, modify the phone from their intended parameters, etc...

I am betting that every goober making this all about tethering, is arguing from a rooted phone, that has bloat removed in violation of the ToS they keep pointing to, etc...

That's what makes this so laughable. While they point the finger at a (gasp!) tetherer, they don't realize that there is just as big of a bullseye on their backs because they rooted and modified their phone. LOL

 

[Martin030908]

such foolish questions. yes, because i think verizon is not wrong for enforcing the contract i signed i must work for them.

and the fact that you say "we all paid for unlimited internet" is laughable (and sad). please show me the provisions of the smartphone data plan that you signed that says "this includes unlimited internet. you paid for it, so feel free to cancel your ISP because we have no provided unlimited internet for you at the low low price of $30/month"...seriously?? unlimited internet?? lol...k.

i don't drink and drive, and i agree that i should get arrested if i do. clearly i work for my state's government and moonlight at the DMV.

i'm in agreement with you that the TOS are what they are, and getting bent out of shape over it is not worth it. I'm not claiming VZW is doing anything illegal... but you're splitting hairs breaking it into data vs. internet. The internet on our devices is accessed thru data usage... it's not like there's a separate stream for the internet vs apps and what not. VZW just needs to do away with their 'unlimited' claims. We're all aware it's not unlimited.

yes and i agree with you like i stated above that what they're doing sucks. we shouldnt have to pay for tethering because data is data. but...we agree that if we want tethering we'll pay for it. there is no point in complaining about it after the fact. they can't force you to sign a contract with them, and they cant force you to stay with them if they change the TOS mid-contract. they don't have one up on you, you dont have one up on them. if you feel you are being ripped off by a new policy, you can leave. if you feel you are being ripped off by an existing policy, you can also leave. what you can't do is violate your existing policy which you signed, and then label them as tyrants and evil because they enforced that violation.

I'm with you. I'm not happy about the way VZW handles the 'data' situation but as mentioned, we signed a contract. Tethering is goes against it. Absolutely. Mid contract policy changes... there again we don't HAVE to stay and can opt out.

 

[czerdrill]

It's been in there forever. If they add something to the contract, they have to give you time to refuse to accept the changes and opt out. So no matter what, you agreed to it, whether you read it or not, or saw it or not. It's there in black and white. Tethering is not allowed on their data plans unless you sign up for a tethering plan. Is it fair? Maybe not. Is it right? Maybe not. Does it matter? Nope, not at all.

Czerdrill hits it on the head. It doesn't matter if you personally feel tethering is right or wrong - it's against your agreement with Verizon (or any other carrier for that matter). You lose.

Removing the bloatware probably goes against a contract signed somewhere too. If you're phone comes with it stock theres probably a reason for it and its probably money. X company pays verizon to preload their app on the new android phone. X company is paying for Verizon's service to promote whatever that app may be. If you rip it off your system X company wasted money and is probably yelling at Verizon for allowing you to remove it one way or another.

Does it suck? Yep. A lot actually. Is there anything I can do about it? Kiss my overclocked and themed phone good-bye.

That was my point. The guys who don't tether want to make it all about tethering because in their minds it absolves them of their part in this.

Which says that you cannot root, remove the pre-installed software that VZW was contractually obligated to put on there, modify the phone from their intended parameters, etc...

I am betting that every goober making this all about tethering, is arguing from a rooted phone, that has bloat removed in violation of the ToS they keep pointing to, etc...

That's what makes this so laughable. While they point the finger at a (gasp!) tetherer, they don't realize that there is just as big of a bullseye on their backs because they rooted and modified their phone. LOL

again...keep up. i tether occasionally, i am definitely rooted, i run custom roms, i overclock, i build my own crappy roms and flash them to my phone on my own time. not sure why you think that i don't do any of these things, or why you think that i think i am immune from some kind of consequence if vzw decides to enforce this...you're arguing for the sake of arguing, and you're doing a horrible job.

 

[czerdrill]

This thread is even more useless than the when is the Thunderbolt coming out ones were. Yes, I know, I posted to it a couple of times giving my opinion and have read about 1/5 of the posts, but that doesn't make it any less useless. Not saying that anyone should stop posting, just that it is completely useless.

Agreed. This thread is completely useless haha. But it's given me quite a few good laughs along the way. It's funny reading the irrelevant analogies, and nonsensical justifications that some people come up with.:icon_ banana:dancedroid

 

[Martin030908]

... on the topic of bloatware... if VZW, and other carriers, it's not just VZW, want to keep loading the crap onto devices, IMO, the subsidized prices should be even lower. If I'm going to have to endure a device pre-loaded with tons of stuff I don't want or use, that will adversely affect performance of my device and I can't remove or at least 'hide' (.apk to .bak) the apps then drop the prices.

If these 3rd party companies are paying carriers to pre-load onto devices then subsidize even further and load up on the bloatware! lol Go ahead and take 1/4 of my storage space and put bloat on there... but give me my phone for $.01!

 

[czerdrill]

... on the topic of bloatware... if VZW, and other carriers, it's not just VZW, want to keep loading the crap onto devices, IMO, the subsidized prices should be even lower. If I'm going to have to endure a device pre-loaded with tons of stuff I don't want or use, that will adversely affect performance of my device and I can't remove or at least 'hide' (.apk to .bak) the apps then drop the prices.

If these 3rd party companies are paying carriers to pre-load onto devices then subsidize even further and load up on the bloatware! lol Go ahead and take 1/4 of my storage space and put bloat on there... but give me my phone for $.01!

A Bionic for $.01?? Bloat it up!! haha dancedroiddancedroid

 

[BigMcGuire]

Until anything happens, all this is conjecture and speculation. I doubt Verizon will kick me from paying $200+/month just because I root my phone. If they do? Then ok, I'll move on and they lose business. I know several handfuls of people that root and tether as well and they're also paying $200+/month (family plans) and rooted. Seems to me to bust their butts over a $20/tethering fee and losing 10x more is illogical. That said, I don't tether. If I do on my Thunderbolt, I'll pay for it. But I will root my phone because I'm not paying $200+/month to be force fed adware that gives my device ~8 hours of battery life.

 

[SquireSCA]

When you bought a car, it said in the warranty provisions, IN WRITING, that YOU SIGNED FOR WHEN YOU BOUGHT THE CAR... that you had to have all service done at an authorized GM dealer and had to use genuine GM parts.

So the argument was the same, that "they knew when they signed the buyer's agreement", yada, yada, yada...

And people went back after the fact, fought it, and a federal law was passed that is still in effect to this day.

Apples and Oranges.... We are not talking about having the device fixed at a place other than a Moto Auth. Dealer. We are talking about using a service that you are not paying for.

No we are not. We are talking about ROOTING. Some people that don't tether are trying to make the issue all about tethering so that they don't appear as guilty. These same people yapping about how we should respect the ToS because we signed it, have violated it themselves several times over by rooting and modifying their phones.

The people championing VZW and their ToS, 99% of them are in violation of said ToS are are also clearly in the crosshairs if VZW implements these new policies.

 

[nlinecomputers]

It's not about Tethering or Bandwidth. It's about content and apps.

I've only read up to page 8 so forgive me if this is already been said but this is not about Bandwidth hogs or tethering.

It's about controlling content. It's about making money from branded navigation apps and access to websites. They are locking down the phones so that you will be forced to view and pay for there content.

It's not tethering but Net Neutrality issues that are driving this.

 

[czerdrill]

When you bought a car, it said in the warranty provisions, IN WRITING, that YOU SIGNED FOR WHEN YOU BOUGHT THE CAR... that you had to have all service done at an authorized GM dealer and had to use genuine GM parts.

So the argument was the same, that "they knew when they signed the buyer's agreement", yada, yada, yada...

And people went back after the fact, fought it, and a federal law was passed that is still in effect to this day.

Apples and Oranges.... We are not talking about having the device fixed at a place other than a Moto Auth. Dealer. We are talking about using a service that you are not paying for.

No we are not. We are talking about ROOTING. Some people that don't tether are trying to make the issue all about tethering so that they don't appear as guilty. These same people yapping about how we should respect the ToS because we signed it, have violated it themselves several times over by rooting and modifying their phones.

The people championing VZW and their ToS, 99% of them are in violation of said ToS are are also clearly in the crosshairs if VZW implements these new policies.

the difference is those 99% wont fight it, and you'll be crying "itz mai fone, i canz do whut i wantzs!" you've gotta record your convo with the vzw rep when you do this, it will be comedy gold.

 

[Martin030908]

... on the topic of bloatware... if VZW, and other carriers, it's not just VZW, want to keep loading the crap onto devices, IMO, the subsidized prices should be even lower. If I'm going to have to endure a device pre-loaded with tons of stuff I don't want or use, that will adversely affect performance of my device and I can't remove or at least 'hide' (.apk to .bak) the apps then drop the prices.

If these 3rd party companies are paying carriers to pre-load onto devices then subsidize even further and load up on the bloatware! lol Go ahead and take 1/4 of my storage space and put bloat on there... but give me my phone for $.01!

A Bionic for $.01?? Bloat it up!! haha dancedroiddancedroid

Exactly!

I know I won't feel as 'wronged' if I only pay a penny for my device.:tongue: For that price I'll deal with the junk! lol

 

[SquireSCA]

See you jump on the tether again. I am talking about stealing. And stealing means you take the data without permission. You pay for permission to take the data.

Stealing not tethering.

And if you do tether you still have permission to access the data. Even though you may be in direct violation with the tos.

You just cannot simply steal the data that you have permission to get.

Do you get put in jail after you buy something and leave the store?

If you the same product wrongly you might, but you didn't steal it.

Sent from OG Droid powered by Pete's GPA

His point is that you are paying for that "food" and the ToS says that you can only eat that "food" with chop sticks. If you eat it with a fork or spoon, then you are stealing because they charge extra for you to eat that same "food" with a different utensil.

not these dumb analogies again. here's what i'm actually saying, try to keep up:

"hey here's some food, if you use a fork we'll charge you"
"oh really? that's cool no problem!!! i agree completely" (proceeds to use fork)
"ok we're gonna have to charge you"
"but but but...whaaaa whaaa"...whining ensues.

If I have tethered more than 15mb of data in the past 7 months, that's a lot.

Sue me.

I don't care about tethering because I almost never do it.

This isn't about tethering, but because tethering is probably the only part of the ToS that you have not personally violated, that's the only item you care about.

Classic.

 

[Martin030908]

I've only read up to page 8 so forgive me if this is already been said but this is not about Bandwidth hogs or tethering.

It's about controlling content. It's about making money from branded navigation apps and access to websites. They are locking down the phones so that you will be forced to view and pay for there content.

It's not tethering but Net Neutrality issues that are driving this.

Most of us are aware it's not solely a tethering issue (although it's certainly part of it)... but it's the topic that has everyone fired up for some reason.

Myself and others have been saying there is much more to this than just tethering and root. As I mentioned, people have been saying for a long time that we (the 'rooting/hacking' community) are a small base of customers across all carriers. There obviously has to be more to it