P3Droid: Some Food for Thought - Bootloaders, Rooting, Manufacturers, and Carriers

[hookbill]

P3 is not Android God. So get your panties unbunched. If this is try dang. But do u honestly think its all going to stop? No. Not at all.

As far as tethering. It is a Stupid argument. VZW has a TETHERING PLAN. If u use with out plan its stealing.plain and simple. It the same as using "unlimited" on a tierd plan. You don't pay for it u don't get it. There is no justification. Sorry. But its just that. U want to tether then stop being a cheapskate and PAY. I pay for mobile hot spot and I am all good. 20.00 Xtra a month no biggie. Can't afford it? Dang get a better job to afford it. Us who can afford it should not be punished cuz tho.who can't steal it.

Sent from my ADR6400L using DroidForums

P3 is God. Sacrilege!

What he said all makes sense. Rooting couldn't go on forever.

As far as the tethering goes, that's not as big an issue until you get into the fact that probably thousands are doing it and some are even using it as their internet provider. That, is totally wrong.

 

[SquireSCA]

Their Network, Their Rules....

When you sign the contract you agree to the rights you have when access and using their Network.

Let me ask you this, would a toll road have the right to ban, say, Ford or Lincoln automobiles, because the road is partially owned by GM? The fact that you own a toll road (or are a service provider) doesn't bestow sweeping and (to some of us anyway) nonsensical *power* over those who use your road (physical or cyber) as a means to go from point A to Point B. If the service providers can produce a shred of evidence that the mere act of rooting a phone and installing a custom rom somehow damages their toll road/network, I've yet to see it.

Yes, tethering can be a form of ripping them off, but I'm not one who tethers, and so are a lot of the others on the forums. Besides, it is a separate action that doesn't necessarily follow the act of rooting. How does the existence of my rooted and themed rom cause them injury or loss?

-Mike

If the Toll Road provider can prove that the Fords or Lincolns are affecting the performance of the Toll Road and that is causing issues for others that use the same toll road, Then yes.

But with users not paying for tethering it's like paying for a Ford to drive the Toll Road, but actually driving a Greyhound bus....

That would only be the case if:

1) You could show that they were using their "Ford Pass" in order to smuggle lots of other people into thetoll road.

2) You could show that my driving that bus represented more space, wear and tear and maintenance for your road than the Ford would have represented.

The truth is, if I am only using the data for myself, not my friends or others, and if I am actually using less of the capacity, wear and tear(traffic) than the Ford is allowed to have, why care what I drive?

In my case, I am paying for the Ford but only using a skateboard. I am not hogging bandwidth. I am not stressing the system. I am not taking more than I paid for. In fact, I am paying for more and taking far less than I am entitled to.

So how is that stealing?

I guess that if I write you a check for $50k for the Hummer H2 but I take home the $6k 2005 Toyota Corrola, I am technically stealing because that is not what I paid for, but does it make sense for the car dealer to "crack down on me" for taking less than I paid for?

LOL

 

[Preach2k]

I keep on seeing illegal used to describe the use of free rooted tether.

What do you mean by free? The software is free but the Tethering is not free. If you are tethering and not paying for it in my opinion is Illegal.

 

[dafischman]

Again, it's not just tethering. What about people who root and remove the bloatware. VZW doesn't want you to do that. They are hoping you'll press City I.D. and like it. I'm sure Amazon paid them good money to put their app on there as well. When people pull these apps off their phone, that's revenue loss.

I think you have it right. There are several revenue streams for VZW that are being lost or mitigated by the rooters. First is the bloatware on the phones. If VZW wanted you to remove it, they'd make it removable, the fact that it isn't shows that they want it on your phone. I imagine companies pay good money to have their apps added to VZW phones, just like those advertisements in games. They hope you click it to check it out, and either hit ok without reading it and get charged, or like it an stick with it.

Additionally, I imagine that the manufacturers such as Motorola are putting pressure on both Google and VZW to do something since they have admitted that hardware has become commoditicized(sp?) and that their unique software overlays are their way of differentiation. They could be threatening to limit the handsets they are willing to provide each carrier depending on how much they are willing to do to help protect them.

All in all, tethering is a small part of the overall issue. The monetary gains by implementing this program is not going to be seen by removing a few thousand heavy tetherers (if that). In fact in the long run they could lose money from that side. The gains will be seen by the ability for VZW to sell permanent advertising on the phones by building in apps that can't be removed.

Sorry for my rambling, I'm just frustrated to see a company that continues to crap on the very people who built up this Android craze. I can personally take credit for selling about 15-20 android devices amongst my friends and family solely because I'm the tech geek of them and they take my opinion seriously. I even converted a couple iphone users from ATT to come to VZW for the Droid. I imagine many of the other rooters out there have similar stories. We may be small but we are vocal and passionate about our devices and can pressure and persuade many people around us to move to new devices. Maybe WP7 or some other option will come in to take it's place if Android gets locked down too much.

Josh

 

[SquireSCA]

Again, it's not just tethering. What about people who root and remove the bloatware. VZW doesn't want you to do that. They are hoping you'll press City I.D. and like it. I'm sure Amazon paid them good money to put their app on there as well. When people pull these apps off their phone, that's revenue loss.

Correct. And if Amazon were to say, "You know what VZW, we don't like that so many people are removing our aps from your phone, so we are going to terminate the $5M a year contract with you"... That is why VZW wants to eliminate rooting.

Rooting costs them money because when they cannot control the phone, they cannot control the content. And if they cannot control the content, then they cannot make as much money from advertizers or people that pay money to have their apps pre-loaded.

It is not and never really was about the <1% of users who use free tethering, of which probably only 5% of those people abuse it.

They see the phone as a portal for ad revenue and pushing paid aps to us, and anything that lets us get away from that, costs them money in their eyes.

It's about control, and $$. It is always about those 2 things.

 

[hookbill]

Again, it's not just tethering. What about people who root and remove the bloatware. VZW doesn't want you to do that. They are hoping you'll press City I.D. and like it. I'm sure Amazon paid them good money to put their app on there as well. When people pull these apps off their phone, that's revenue loss.

How is it revenue loss if you pull the app off your phone? The app is already there to begin with. Meaning you already paid for the app when you paid for your phone. This isn't a revenue generator like Google's $$$ per 1 click banner advertisement.

They aren't making money every time you click the app. I don't know where you're getting the idea that revenue is made or loss when pulling the app off your phone that was already there to begin with.

Well if you pay to advertise something you expect it to be on the page you paid for. Now when someone removes that app, the opportunity to make revenue is lost. When the app is on the screen there is always a chance someone will push it to see what it's about. And the loss of revenue regardless of whether people buy or not comes from the devs who make these apps that VZW puts on as bloatware. If it's ineffective because people are hiding the app then they will stop paying Verizon to put it in the bloatware.

 

[Backnblack]

So how is that stealing?

Simple, Your using a service (tethering) that you are not paying for.

 

[Martin030908]

All this huff... where is everyone who has been saying "rooting/hacking is such a small percentage of Android users"?

It's all about controlling the devices... it's not that so many are actually taking advantage of root access on their devices... it's that the option remains... and carriers (like VZW) want to negate that channel for the end user.

 

[SquireSCA]

Again, it's not just tethering. What about people who root and remove the bloatware. VZW doesn't want you to do that. They are hoping you'll press City I.D. and like it. I'm sure Amazon paid them good money to put their app on there as well. When people pull these apps off their phone, that's revenue loss.

How is it revenue loss if you pull the app off your phone? The app is already there to begin with. Meaning you already paid for the app when you paid for your phone. This isn't a revenue generator like Google's $$$ per 1 click banner advertisement.

They aren't making money every time you click the app. I don't know where you're getting the idea that revenue is made or loss when pulling the app off your phone that was already there to begin with.

For the same reason that the ad companies went after TIVO. If they can show that a certain percentage of people delete the apps, or skip through the commercials, those companies go back to that cable network, or Big Red, and tell them, "We don't feel that we are getting our money's worth because studies show that 30% of your viewers never see our ads/apps."

They use that argument to lower their costs, or to not renew a contract, or negotiate cheaper rates for themselves, which costs the cable network or Big Red money.

Why do I get 50 spam messages a day? Because someone that I did business with sold my information to an advertizer. It's huge money when on the scale of a VZW or tv network.

Rooting takes away that control they have over what we do and what we see, and that what is good for us, is not as profitable for them, bottom line.

 

[Doulandroid]

Maybe this has something to do with it. As a way for Verizon to get us to use only the apps they want us to use if this case continues to fail. http://www.developingconcerns.com/2...ropcs-lose-round-in-fcc-net-neutrality-fight/

Sent from my Droid using DroidForums

 

[GodfatherIP]

Tethering is becoming the banner for VZW because technically, they can call it theft and that will give whatever their real agenda is some credibility when it comes to the legal aspect.

This isn't about tethering and I think that everyone knows that by now. If it was, they would have already addressed it and killed it.

They want more control over the phones. This will go further than what we are seeing today. Today it is tethering.

Tomorrow it will be removing bloat, and they will claim that, "We are losing subsidy revenue because these business partners are pulling their money out because they feel that so many people are rooting that they are not getting their money's worth..." It is the exact same argument that companies tried to sue TIVO over, trying to make it so that users could not fast-forward through the recorded commercials. They cited that if a certain percentage of people did that, that their ads were not being seen and so they didn't want to spend as money advertizing knowing that people wouldn't have to sit through the ads.

They lost.

Then it will be an attempt to block SKYPE type apps. And they will claim that "many people are picking the lowest voice plans and then using our data plan to make 2000 minutes of phone calls per month. That is stealing from us because if they want to make calls they should have the appropriate voice plan, not use one of these free apps and the data channel on our phones"...

That and more, will come down the pipe, trust me. And all of this has nothing to do with stealing. It is an established company that would rather support a perhaps outdated business model than have to adapt to a changing world that we live in. It's about profits and making the stock holders happy, and screw the customers. So long as we don't leave, they don't care how miserable we are or how unfair they are.

Exactly, they want to lock phones down and control them so they can charge you more for everything you do. Before Android VZW's phones were totally locked down sand boxed devices that could only use V Cast apps. So if you wanted to watch TV shows on your phone you had no options other than V Cast video on demand. If you wanted games then you only had the games sold by Verizon to choose from. If you wanted a custom ringtone, well that will be a dollar to get one using their app. If you want navigation, then pony up that monthly fee for VZ Navigator. They miss the days of controlling everything on your device when you had no choice but to buy apps from them and pay monthly fees to use your phone's features. They went to Android because their locked down "smartphones" were getting blown away by devices like the iPhone where people had access to an entire store of 3rd party apps. I remember a couple years ago the choice was Verizon for the network or some other carrier for decent hardware. Then they went to Android and had some of the best hardware to go with the best network. Now that they have taken back market share with Android devices they want to work to take back the control they gave up so they can nickel and dime you for everything you use. The more they control your device the more money they can make by forcing bloatware on you, forcing ads on you, charging for features built into the phone like tethering and GPS, and maybe eventually blocking certain apps from being used on your phone (like Skype or Google Voice so people can't do calls and texts over data). It is clear why they would want to lock down devices and it is not just to prevent illicit tethering. If that was their only concern then it is easily solved by tiered data plans with monthly usage caps. "Unlimited data" is really just a marketing tool anyway since they know most users will not use very much data. If everyone actually took full advantage of their "unlimited" plan and used 30+ GB a month on their phone it would cripple the network as it isn't really designed for such high data usage but they know people like hearing unlimited and that most people will just be checking their e-mail. A capped data plan doesn't sound a sexy on the commercials but no one is going to be playing xbox live using their phone's internet if they have a 2 GB cap and $0.10 per MB overage charges. But instead of being honest about the limitations of their network and capping data usage they are going to make rooters out to be the "bad guys" and use us as an excuse to lock down our devices and slowly chip away at our freedom while they up their profit margins.

 

[dfuser312553]

I keep on seeing illegal used to describe the use of free rooted tether.

What do you mean by free? The software is free but the Tethering is not free. If you are tethering and not paying for it in my opinion is Illegal.

I only meant to accurately describe which tethering method.
So then....PDA net is repackaging the carrier's services then & selling them as their own. If subverting carrier billed tethering was illegal they would have been gone a long time ago.

 

[Martin030908]

Tethering is becoming the banner for VZW because technically, they can call it theft and that will give whatever their real agenda is some credibility when it comes to the legal aspect.

This isn't about tethering and I think that everyone knows that by now. If it was, they would have already addressed it and killed it.

They want more control over the phones. This will go further than what we are seeing today. Today it is tethering.

Tomorrow it will be removing bloat, and they will claim that, "We are losing subsidy revenue because these business partners are pulling their money out because they feel that so many people are rooting that they are not getting their money's worth..." It is the exact same argument that companies tried to sue TIVO over, trying to make it so that users could not fast-forward through the recorded commercials. They cited that if a certain percentage of people did that, that their ads were not being seen and so they didn't want to spend as money advertizing knowing that people wouldn't have to sit through the ads.

They lost.

Then it will be an attempt to block SKYPE type apps. And they will claim that "many people are picking the lowest voice plans and then using our data plan to make 2000 minutes of phone calls per month. That is stealing from us because if they want to make calls they should have the appropriate voice plan, not use one of these free apps and the data channel on our phones"...

That and more, will come down the pipe, trust me. And all of this has nothing to do with stealing. It is an established company that would rather support a perhaps outdated business model than have to adapt to a changing world that we live in. It's about profits and making the stock holders happy, and screw the customers. So long as we don't leave, they don't care how miserable we are or how unfair they are.

Exactly, they want to lock phones down and control them so they can charge you more for everything you do. Before Android VZW's phones were totally locked down sand boxed devices that could only use V Cast apps. So if you wanted to watch TV shows on your phone you had no options other than V Cast video on demand. If you wanted games then you only had the games sold by Verizon to choose from. If you wanted a custom ringtone, well that will be a dollar to get one using their app. If you want navigation, then pony up that monthly fee for VZ Navigator. They miss the days of controlling everything on your device when you had no choice but to buy apps from them and pay monthly fees to use your phone's features. They went to Android because their locked down "smartphones" were getting blown away by devices like the iPhone where people had access to an entire store of 3rd party apps. I remember a couple years ago the choice was Verizon for the network or some other carrier for decent hardware. Then they went to Android and had some of the best hardware to go with the best network. Now that they have taken back market share with Android devices they want to work to take back the control they gave up so they can nickel and dime you for everything you use. The more they control your device the more money they can make by forcing bloatware on you, forcing ads on you, charging for features built into the phone like tethering and GPS, and maybe eventually blocking certain apps from being used on your phone (like Skype or Google Voice so people can't do calls and texts over data). It is clear why they would want to lock down devices and it is not just to prevent illicit tethering. If that was their only concern then it is easily solved by tiered data plans with monthly usage caps. "Unlimited data" is really just a marketing tool anyway since they know most users will not use very much data. If everyone actually took full advantage of their "unlimited" plan and used 30+ GB a month on their phone it would cripple the network as it isn't really designed for such high data usage but they know people like hearing unlimited and that most people will just be checking their e-mail. A capped data plan doesn't sound a sexy on the commercials but no one is going to be playing xbox live using their phone's internet if they have a 2 GB cap and $0.10 per MB overage charges. But instead of being honest about the limitations of their network and capping data usage they are going to make rooters out to be the "bad guys" and use us as an excuse to lock down our devices and slowly chip away at our freedom while they up their profit margins.

Not much to argue with there. Absolutely right that before Android everything required some type of Verizon service... I can see them wanting that control back so they can nickel and dime.

Tethering is just a front, it's not the real issue here.

 

[SquireSCA]

So how is that stealing?

Simple, Your using a service (tethering) that you are not paying for.

I am actually not.

It is only a "service" because they changed their policies to artificially create it.

Tethering is built into the platform, they simply suppress it and then re-create it as an add-on.

So they are the ones taking something built-in, deleting it, and then adding it back in so that they can charge us for something that should have been there in the first place.

Like if a car dealership took a new Ford Taurus from Ford, and removed the blinkers, and then put them back on and charged you $500 for the "turn signal option package"... LOL

Argue all you want, I really hardly ever tether so you can accuse me of stealing till you are blue in the face.

If you rooted, you are stealing also, even if you never tethered. If you ever hid an app, deleted any bloatware, or downloaded a free app from a developer that mimicks an app that Verizon sells, then you stole revenue from Verizon.

So listening to you call it stealing, is like if I were to go 5mph over the speed limit on the interstate, while you are pointing a finger at me and accusing me of breaking the law, while driving alongside me with an expired tag and no insurance.

Save the self-righteousness for someone that cares.

 

[freezyfreaky]

In an effort to find out the answers we are looking for, I decided to call Verizon Wireless and get their responses to our questions. I've transcribed the conversation for all of you below:

[Music]

[This call may be recorded for quality assurance or training purposes]

[Music]

Rep: Thank you for calling Verizon Wireless. This is [redacted]. May I have your name please?
Me : freezyfreaky
Rep: Excuse me?
Me : fuhh-reezy fuh-reaky
Rep: Uhh.. sorry.. how do you spell that?
Me : f-r-e-e-z-y f-r-e-a-k-y
Rep: Uh.. umm.. How can I help you, Mr.. uhhhh.. Freez... umm.. sir?
Me : Please. I am a man of stature in life. Call me Mr. Freaky.
Rep: Uhh... Mr. Freaky. Can I put you on hold please?
Me : Sure, babe.
Rep: um okay.

[Music]

Rep: Thank you for holding, sir. How may I help you?
Me : Mr. Freaky
Rep: Um.. Mr. Freaky
Me : Thank you. I am part of a small but growing, vibrant community of phone enthusiaists on droidforums.net. I regularly bless them with my thoughts through posting on numerous topics regarding Android and more specifically Verizon Android phones.
Rep: ...
Me : Please settle this dispute for us. We are currently holding a discussion regarding rumors of Verizon changing their practices in the future so they can further lock down and monitor rooted phones. Are these changes being made because someone who is not me rooted their phone and flashed the NAND using Team Black Hat's wireless tether mod, or say, use an widely available app on the market like PDAnet that doesn't require root so that someone who is not me can tether for free?
Rep: Uh, Excuse me?
Me : Tethering. I said tethering.
Rep: Oh, okay, if you want to tether, we can sign you up for tethering for $20 per month with a 2GB limit.
Me : No, that's not what I meant. But since we are on the topic, why when I'm paying $30 per month for unlimited data that I need to pay extra for tethering when we both know it is the same data being downloaded through your phone.
Rep: I'm sorry, sir. The unlimited data plan is for your phone only. Using tethering to connect any other device will cost an additional $20 per month.
Me : Mr. Freaky.
Rep: Sorry, Mr. Freaky. There is an additional charge for tethering.
Me : So if I can use the analogy of an all-you-can-eat chinese buffet... if I was a phone, my girlfriend is my laptop, unlimited data plan being the all-you-can-eat chinese food, you are saying that if I wanted my girlfriend to eat too... that I would have to pay for her also?
Rep: Umm... I guess so.
Me : Seriously. Do you really think it's fair that I have to pay for my girlfriend to eat too?
Rep: Uhh.. no?
Me : Thanks, babe. You have been very helpful
Rep: Is there anything else I can help you with?
Me : Nope.
Rep: Thankyouforcallingverizonwirelessgoodbye.

[click]