P3Droid: Some Food for Thought - Bootloaders, Rooting, Manufacturers, and Carriers

[dfuser312553]

.......Every website you do to, has a gazillion ads all over it, including this website. If there was an app that you could run on your phone or PC, that would strip out all the banner ads and crap, what would happen? Once they caught wind of it, the sponsors of those ads would go to the forum Admin and tell them that unless they blocked those apps and could force those ads to appear on everyone's screen, they would stop advertising here, and if DF.net wanted to keep that money coming in, they would have to "crack down" on whatever was allowing us to get around the ads.....

There are plenty of those apps on android & pc. They work well.

 

[freezyfreaky]

In an effort to find out the answers we are looking for, I decided to call Verizon Wireless and get their responses to our questions. I've transcribed the conversation for all of you below:

[Music]

[This call may be recorded for quality assurance or training purposes]

[Music]

Rep: Thank you for calling Verizon Wireless. This is [redacted]. May I have your name please?
Me : freezyfreaky
Rep: Excuse me?
Me : fuhh-reezy fuh-reaky
Rep: Uhh.. sorry.. how do you spell that?
Me : f-r-e-e-z-y f-r-e-a-k-y
Rep: Uh.. umm.. How can I help you, Mr.. uhhhh.. Freez... umm.. sir?
Me : Please. I am a man of stature in life. Call me Mr. Freaky.
Rep: Uhh... Mr. Freaky. Can I put you on hold please?
Me : Sure, babe.
Rep: um okay.

[Music]

Rep: Thank you for holding, sir. How may I help you?
Me : Mr. Freaky
Rep: Um.. Mr. Freaky
Me : Thank you. I am part of a small but growing, vibrant community of phone enthusiaists on droidforums.net. I regularly bless them with my thoughts through posting on numerous topics regarding Android and more specifically Verizon Android phones.
Rep: ...
Me : Please settle this dispute for us. We are currently holding a discussion regarding rumors of Verizon changing their practices in the future so they can further lock down and monitor rooted phones. Are these changes being made because someone who is not me rooted their phone and flashed the NAND using Team Black Hat's wireless tether mod, or say, use an widely available app on the market like PDAnet that doesn't require root so that someone who is not me can tether for free?
Rep: Uh, Excuse me?
Me : Tethering. I said tethering.
Rep: Oh, okay, if you want to tether, we can sign you up for tethering for $20 per month with a 2GB limit.
Me : No, that's not what I meant. But since we are on the topic, why when I'm paying $30 per month for unlimited data that I need to pay extra for tethering when we both know it is the same data being downloaded through your phone.
Rep: I'm sorry, sir. The unlimited data plan is for your phone only. Using tethering to connect any other device will cost an additional $20 per month.
Me : Mr. Freaky.
Rep: Sorry, Mr. Freaky. There is an additional charge for tethering.
Me : So if I can use the analogy of an all-you-can-eat chinese buffet... if I was a phone, my girlfriend is my laptop, unlimited data plan being the all-you-can-eat chinese food, you are saying that if I wanted my girlfriend to eat too... that I would have to pay for her also?
Rep: Umm... I guess so.
Me : Seriously. Do you really think it's fair that I have to pay for my girlfriend to eat too?
Rep: Uhh.. no?
Me : Thanks, babe. You have been very helpful
Rep: Is there anything else I can help you with?
Me : Nope.
Rep: Thankyouforcallingverizonwirelessgoodbye.

[click]

You r now my new favorite person lol . U made my day thank u

Sent from my ADR6400L using DroidForums

Thanks. Glad you found it funny!

I hope nobody here thinks I am making fun of their opinions on this issue. Anyone following this thread knows that I'm thrown more than my 2 cents in. Just wanted to post something that I hope some other people would find funny.

 

[TheTyler0013]

IMHO I think that our Dev community wont go away, Rooting wont go away. Maybe we will be slow and kinda delayed for a bit. Maybe i will have to go back to un-rooted for a bit, but with all the amazing Dev's here, someone WILL find a work around and we will have it all back again. So I am no scared. NOTHING is permanent.

 

[BigMcGuire]

IMHO I think that our Dev community wont go away, Rooting wont go away. Maybe we will be slow and kinda delayed for a bit. Maybe i will have to go back to un-rooted for a bit, but with all the amazing Dev's here, someone WILL find a work around and we will have it all back again. So I am no scared. NOTHING is permanent.

Good point. If HTC Android devs create such a crappy locked bootloader that the devs here can break it on day 1........ Same thing for Motorola though it took longer.

 

[UltraDroid]

IMHO I think that our Dev community wont go away, Rooting wont go away. Maybe we will be slow and kinda delayed for a bit. Maybe i will have to go back to un-rooted for a bit, but with all the amazing Dev's here, someone WILL find a work around and we will have it all back again. So I am no scared. NOTHING is permanent.

I agree 100%. It's not a time for a total freak-out, but rather a time for some sober reflection on the reality of rooting. The reality is that rooting phones annoys some people - some people at the manufacturing level and some people at the service provider level. They have varying reasons for being annoyed, including some we're probably not yet aware of, and they may well be taking steps to try to put a stop to rooting.

I'm not sure they can - both from a legal standpoint and from a practical standpoint. The genie is out of the bottle, and I don't believe that they can force it back in, but I do believe that they're working up plans to try to do just that. So the question to consider is what is our strategy going to be - how do we collectively respond to what I think is a very real threat? I don't know the answer myself, but we've got a lot of REALLY smart people on this forum and I'm hoping some of them can come up with some concrete solutions or ideas.

-Mike

 

[illmatic636]

HTC did not build a crappy locked bootloader. They built a locked bootloader. Motorola built a locked encrypted bootloader.

Please don't diss the Devs over at HTC as they too can encrypt locked bootloaders going forward. That is what this whole thread is about.

lol. I think its time to unsubscribe from this one.

 

[OneTenderRebel]

IMHO I think that our Dev community wont go away, Rooting wont go away. Maybe we will be slow and kinda delayed for a bit. Maybe i will have to go back to un-rooted for a bit, but with all the amazing Dev's here, someone WILL find a work around and we will have it all back again. So I am no scared. NOTHING is permanent.

Good point. If HTC Android devs create such a crappy locked bootloader that the devs here can break it on day 1........ Same thing for Motorola though it took longer.

well HTC doesn't encrypt their bootloaders, lock yes, encrypt no. As far as Moto the X and Droid2 ad D2G have locked and encrypted bootloaders and those bad boys aren't getting unlocked ever unless Moto wants to hand the keys over. But who knows how much further they could take this? I mean even the X and D2 have a work around to atleast root the device. Just no changing of the Kernel on them with an encrypted bootloader.

 

[Doulandroid]

I hesitate to ask, but every fruit phone users in know is jailbroken with tethering installed, so if all this were true, it's going to affect more the Droid devotees, right?

Sent from my Droid using DroidForums

 

[BigMcGuire]

In an effort to find out the answers we are looking for, I decided to call Verizon Wireless and get their responses to our questions. I've transcribed the conversation for all of you below:

[Music]

[This call may be recorded for quality assurance or training purposes]

[Music]

Rep: Thank you for calling Verizon Wireless. This is [redacted]. May I have your name please?
Me : freezyfreaky
Rep: Excuse me?
Me : fuhh-reezy fuh-reaky
Rep: Uhh.. sorry.. how do you spell that?
Me : f-r-e-e-z-y f-r-e-a-k-y
Rep: Uh.. umm.. How can I help you, Mr.. uhhhh.. Freez... umm.. sir?
Me : Please. I am a man of stature in life. Call me Mr. Freaky.
Rep: Uhh... Mr. Freaky. Can I put you on hold please?
Me : Sure, babe.
Rep: um okay.

[Music]

Rep: Thank you for holding, sir. How may I help you?
Me : Mr. Freaky
Rep: Um.. Mr. Freaky
Me : Thank you. I am part of a small but growing, vibrant community of phone enthusiaists on droidforums.net. I regularly bless them with my thoughts through posting on numerous topics regarding Android and more specifically Verizon Android phones.
Rep: ...
Me : Please settle this dispute for us. We are currently holding a discussion regarding rumors of Verizon changing their practices in the future so they can further lock down and monitor rooted phones. Are these changes being made because someone who is not me rooted their phone and flashed the NAND using Team Black Hat's wireless tether mod, or say, use an widely available app on the market like PDAnet that doesn't require root so that someone who is not me can tether for free?
Rep: Uh, Excuse me?
Me : Tethering. I said tethering.
Rep: Oh, okay, if you want to tether, we can sign you up for tethering for $20 per month with a 2GB limit.
Me : No, that's not what I meant. But since we are on the topic, why when I'm paying $30 per month for unlimited data that I need to pay extra for tethering when we both know it is the same data being downloaded through your phone.
Rep: I'm sorry, sir. The unlimited data plan is for your phone only. Using tethering to connect any other device will cost an additional $20 per month.
Me : Mr. Freaky.
Rep: Sorry, Mr. Freaky. There is an additional charge for tethering.
Me : So if I can use the analogy of an all-you-can-eat chinese buffet... if I was a phone, my girlfriend is my laptop, unlimited data plan being the all-you-can-eat chinese food, you are saying that if I wanted my girlfriend to eat too... that I would have to pay for her also?
Rep: Umm... I guess so.
Me : Seriously. Do you really think it's fair that I have to pay for my girlfriend to eat too?
Rep: Uhh.. no?
Me : Thanks, babe. You have been very helpful
Rep: Is there anything else I can help you with?
Me : Nope.
Rep: Thankyouforcallingverizonwirelessgoodbye.

[click]

Just frigging epic. I'm loling so badly. I like the point here tho - tis true, may not be fair but it's the rules. lololol.

 

[Redbaron134]

Think big brother. I bought my phone as did all of you so of I wish to modify it through rooting then that is my perogative, it is about the money and the reason they are banning together is so it makes it harder for legislation to pass law preventing this. I can agree with tracking for purposes of stealing services fine, but my phone is mine. Dell doesn't refuse me support if I modify my computer same principle. We need to get legislation involved in this and stop this before the full force is felt. Remember Comcast and the lawsuit there over imposing data limits.

Sent from my DROIDX using DroidForums

 

[SquireSCA]

IMHO I think that our Dev community wont go away, Rooting wont go away. Maybe we will be slow and kinda delayed for a bit. Maybe i will have to go back to un-rooted for a bit, but with all the amazing Dev's here, someone WILL find a work around and we will have it all back again. So I am no scared. NOTHING is permanent.

I agree 100%. It's not a time for a total freak-out, but rather a time for some sober reflection on the reality of rooting. The reality is that rooting phones annoys some people - some people at the manufacturing level and some people at the service provider level. They have varying reasons for being annoyed, including some we're probably not yet aware of, and they may well be taking steps to try to put a stop to rooting.

I'm not sure they can - both from a legal standpoint and from a practical standpoint. The genie is out of the bottle, and I don't believe that they can force it back in, but I do believe that they're working up plans to try to do just that. So the question to consider is what is our strategy going to be - how do we collectively respond to what I think is a very real threat? I don't know the answer myself, but we've got a lot of REALLY smart people on this forum and I'm hoping some of them can come up with some concrete solutions or ideas.

-Mike

Another reason why companies are against rooting and jailbreaking... Apps and features.

Companies like VZW and Apple, intentionally hold back functionality. They only release enough to give them a slight edge over the competition, and they withhold the rest so that they can release it later either as an app(for a fee), or as a reason to upgrade.

Apple was the worst at this, taking out what were industry standard features like MMS texts, copy and paste, etc... They did that so that 2 years after every other company had that as a standard feature, they could go back to their lemming followers and release it as an upgrade, making them all feel special that they were now caught up to everyone else.

Apple would routinely keep back features, so that not only would they sell you the phone, but then they could sell you the apps to provide the things that the phone should have come with in the first place. They wanted to be able to "double dip", as it were.

And when people jailbroke the phones and got those apps and functionality for free elsewhere, they tried to go after them in court.

VZW is no better than Apple. They used to charge for everything... GPS, ringtones, Caller ID, music, video streaming... Now we can get that all for free with a simple data plan. Now we can drop our voice plan to a minimal plan and do 2,000 minutes a month on Skype.

They want control so that everything we do, has a fee for us to pay.

Why let us have some app from the community when they can charge us a dollar for it, or $$ per month?

That is why they hate rooting. They can't keep us from going elsewhere for the features, options or services that they want to charge us for.

 

[GodfatherIP]

people buy the phones regardless if its locked or not. the few who complain about it are a drop in the bucket. they're not alienating 45% of their users, they're alienating 0.045% (made up number).

vzw/moto/htc/samsung or any other OEM is not in the android game because they are one with the ideals of open source. they're in it for money. and charging for tethering, or blocking root, or putting bloatware on these phones make them money. the phones sell no matter what. you're not going to see android marketshare plummet to 1% because root is blocked. the overwhelming majority actually does win: vzw makes and saves money, OEMs make and save money, and the average consumer (see 99+%) get great phones.

It does affect the non-root users to some extent because these companies are spending money to try to lock these phones down and do you think they just eat that cost or do you think they pass the expense on to the consumer? Plus as they take more control over your phone we will they will boldly add more bloat, more ads, and more charges to use features that are built into the phones. Do we really want to end up with "Android" phones that only run V Cast apps? Or a "Google" phone that can only use Bing search? Or have an additional monthly fee to "unlock" wifi and GPS? They can just say it is in your ToS that you can't use wifi or GPS on your phone unless you pay VZW a monthly fee to and get their special certified app. Obviously at some point consumers will say enough is enough but how far do we let this B.S. continue before we decide it has gone too far?

 

[czerdrill]

people buy the phones regardless if its locked or not. the few who complain about it are a drop in the bucket. they're not alienating 45% of their users, they're alienating 0.045% (made up number).

vzw/moto/htc/samsung or any other OEM is not in the android game because they are one with the ideals of open source. they're in it for money. and charging for tethering, or blocking root, or putting bloatware on these phones make them money. the phones sell no matter what. you're not going to see android marketshare plummet to 1% because root is blocked. the overwhelming majority actually does win: vzw makes and saves money, OEMs make and save money, and the average consumer (see 99+%) get great phones.

It does affect the non-root users to some extent because these companies are spending money to try to lock these phones down and do you think they just eat that cost or do you think they pass the expense on to the consumer? Plus as they take more control over your phone we will they will boldly add more bloat, more ads, and more charges to use features that are built into the phones. Do we really want to end up with "Android" phones that only run V Cast apps? Or a "Google" phone that can only use Bing search? Or have an additional monthly fee to "unlock" wifi and GPS? They can just say it is in your ToS that you can't use wifi or GPS on your phone unless you pay VZW a monthly fee to and get their special certified app. Obviously at some point consumers will say enough is enough but how far do we let this B.S. continue before we decide it has gone too far?

Good point, and yeah that is true. I think it's safe to say that if android gets to that point, it'll just fall to the wayside like every other company. I hope (or at least pray) that Google mans up and doesn't allow something that extreme to happen.

As for your other points, you're not going to see some ridiculous price changes because of locked/encrypted bootloaders. the subsidies will remain more or less the same, and have stayed that way for years. Same with the data plans. You're not gonna have to wake up tomorrow and pay $50 for a 3G data plan because all phones require encrypted bootloaders now.

 

[GodfatherIP]

people buy the phones regardless if its locked or not. the few who complain about it are a drop in the bucket. they're not alienating 45% of their users, they're alienating 0.045% (made up number).

vzw/moto/htc/samsung or any other OEM is not in the android game because they are one with the ideals of open source. they're in it for money. and charging for tethering, or blocking root, or putting bloatware on these phones make them money. the phones sell no matter what. you're not going to see android marketshare plummet to 1% because root is blocked. the overwhelming majority actually does win: vzw makes and saves money, OEMs make and save money, and the average consumer (see 99+%) get great phones.

It does affect the non-root users to some extent because these companies are spending money to try to lock these phones down and do you think they just eat that cost or do you think they pass the expense on to the consumer? Plus as they take more control over your phone we will they will boldly add more bloat, more ads, and more charges to use features that are built into the phones. Do we really want to end up with "Android" phones that only run V Cast apps? Or a "Google" phone that can only use Bing search? Or have an additional monthly fee to "unlock" wifi and GPS? They can just say it is in your ToS that you can't use wifi or GPS on your phone unless you pay VZW a monthly fee to and get their special certified app. Obviously at some point consumers will say enough is enough but how far do we let this B.S. continue before we decide it has gone too far?

Good point, and yeah that is true. I think it's safe to say that if android gets to that point, it'll just fall to the wayside like every other company. I hope (or at least pray) that Google mans up and doesn't allow something that extreme to happen.

As for your other points, you're not going to see some ridiculous price changes because of locked/encrypted bootloaders. the subsidies will remain more or less the same, and have stayed that way for years. Same with the data plans. You're not gonna have to wake up tomorrow and pay $50 for a 3G data plan because all phones require encrypted bootloaders now.

I agree that the locked bootloaders aren't going to make a big change in price but it is still money and research that could be put toward improving the phone rather than being wasted on trying to stop rooters. Also although I doubt we will see the extreme cases I alluded to in the questions we have already seen the wifi unlocking charge to some extent with the Xoom tablet having locked wifi that can only be unlocked by purchasing a VZW data plan.

 

[GodfatherIP]

It does affect the non-root users to some extent because these companies are spending money to try to lock these phones down and do you think they just eat that cost or do you think they pass the expense on to the consumer? Plus as they take more control over your phone we will they will boldly add more bloat, more ads, and more charges to use features that are built into the phones. Do we really want to end up with "Android" phones that only run V Cast apps? Or a "Google" phone that can only use Bing search? Or have an additional monthly fee to "unlock" wifi and GPS? They can just say it is in your ToS that you can't use wifi or GPS on your phone unless you pay VZW a monthly fee to and get their special certified app. Obviously at some point consumers will say enough is enough but how far do we let this B.S. continue before we decide it has gone too far?

Good point, and yeah that is true. I think it's safe to say that if android gets to that point, it'll just fall to the wayside like every other company. I hope (or at least pray) that Google mans up and doesn't allow something that extreme to happen.

As for your other points, you're not going to see some ridiculous price changes because of locked/encrypted bootloaders. the subsidies will remain more or less the same, and have stayed that way for years. Same with the data plans. You're not gonna have to wake up tomorrow and pay $50 for a 3G data plan because all phones require encrypted bootloaders now.

I agree that the locked bootloaders aren't going to make a big change in price but it is still money and research that could be put toward improving the phone rather than being wasted on trying to stop rooters. Also although I doubt we will see the extreme cases I alluded to in the questions we have already seen the wifi unlocking charge to some extent with the Xoom tablet having locked wifi that can only be unlocked by purchasing a VZW data plan.

I just searched and saw that VZW backed off of the locked wifi on the Xoom because everyone knew it was B.S. and complained. A small victory for the consumers!