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P3Droid: Some Food for Thought - Bootloaders, Rooting, Manufacturers, and Carriers

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How do they make money if we don't click on it? Same way they make money from commercials. They pay to put it on the air. But with TIVO, they could see that people were forwarding through them. This angered the people who were paying top dollar to put ads in front of the viewers, who were then using the fast forward button to circumvent them.

So they went and pressured the TV networks and TIVO themselves, saying that they were not willing to pay them the advertising fees unless they could guarantee that people would have to actually view the ads.

By letting us remove the bloat, that they PAID for to be on there, that opens the door for them to go to VZW and not pay them as much, or cancel the contracts or not renew them unless VZW could guarantee that their apps could not be removed.

That costs VZW money. So our rooting and removing the bloat, VZW sees as stealing their ability to sell and generate that revenue from those 3rd parties.

It's crazy, but that is how this crap works.
Ok, I understand most of that, but how would they know when we use their app? It would be no different if we left the app on there and NEVER EVER once clicked it. That also would be no different in removing the app. They paid for the app to be on there but that's where it stops. What the consumer does to the app is their choice and is no longer in the developers/advertisers control.

I've seen some people say that rooting your phone prevents any OTA from updating. I never had that problem. The only time an OTA update is prevented is by installing a ROM that was coded to stay at a certain version, rather than OTA updating, changing the version, and thus making things incompatible to use on your phone.

So, in other words you're saying that the developers/advertisers pay money to VZW with their updates on bloatware, but some updates don't make it to some phones because of a custom ROM blocking it? Therefore the money expected to be generated from these updates is less than expected?

Makes no sense. I'm at lost for words here.

OK to answer this one you have to look at it just like the TV ads spoke of. We may not buy what the are advertising, but it is in our faces none the less, we still see it, and eventually enough people will start to wonder what all the hype is and try it out. Same with an app, we may not use it, but everytime we open our app drawers, there it is staring us in the face, you or I may never open that app we think is garbage, but enough subscribers will click it, and may even find it useful.

As to the question of roms, no it is not just the fact that it blocks ota updates, this is not really relevant to this particular question, as the apps updates all come from the market and therefore you can choose to update the program or not. What some/most roms allow you to do is remove the app completely from your phone, thus you never see it, and never give it another thought to try it out, therefore it is like people skipping through ads on their tivo, the companies paying for the ads are not going to pay what they used to, if they choose to pay up at all after their initial agreement. This is some serious revenue loss, and sorry if we all do not like it, that is what a business is all about...making revenue, when a business starts losing revenue, especially due to their customers defrauding them, they will take action to recuperate, and remove the loss of revenue. If you actually think Verizon, or any other big business gives more of a ratzass about us customers than they do about the almighty dollar, you are mistaken. They only care as long as we pay, and they care less than we pay!
 
+1. I can't wait for tiered pricing. Will save me hundreds. The highest I've ever gone is like 600mb

This assumes that pricing will be reasonable, which I don't believe it will be (but I'm hoping). Like you I average about 600mb per month, and I've only gone above 1GB twice over the course of 15 months with my Droid.

Think about this, though: if everybody pays $30 now for unlimited, then $30 will be the baseline pricing if they want to make money on people who go above a certain threshold. That means if only 5-15% of users go above, say, 2GB, then there is no way they will price 2GB at $30. That would mean 85-95% of consumers would end up paying LESS than they do now, and means less revenue. I think we will get gouged by tiered pricing.

one thing about not being able to root is the chances of "bricking" your device just got reduced to the chances of being struck by lightning or winning the powerball....instead of the 50\50 chance we are on right now.

While this appears to be a common perception among the Android community, I believe this is actually counter-intuitive: unlocked bootloaders means the chance of bricking your device go down, and locked bootloaders means the chance of truly bricking the device go up. Isn't that ironic?

I agree with P3Droid that we need to be a more responsible community of hackers. I saw a thread by a guy who returned his phone because it was semi-bricked while hacking it and got his phone replaced for free, even while people in the thread were giving him advice on how to "unbrick" his phone via SBF. I did a real-life face-palm, but didn't comment in the thread.

However, I believe that P3Droid's conclusions and evaluations of the information he was presented with are inaccurate, illogical and speculative. Hacking and rooting is not going to die. It's near impossible to get rid of it.

Remember, this isn't truly about them losing too much money to warranty fraud, this is about them not wanting to become "dumb pipes" (google the term) and wanting to monetize additional services and software on our phones. Rooting allows us to circumvent their additional features/services like "hotspot" and software apps, because we can get them elsewhere in the market once we're free of them. So in order to continue monetizing these services, they want to lock us down and control our access to unauthorized services. They hide behind the guise of protecting us from malicious software or claiming they're losing too much to warranty fraud (and we should NOT be participating in warranty fraud), but this isn't the true picture.

Lastly, the fact that device manufacturers are actually encouraging and helping us root now is very important to keep in mind.

Brandon
 
Too early to lockdown android. I bet if microsoft were to suddenly release the source for the windows phone they could knock android right back to number 3 or 4.

Sent from my Droid using DroidForums App
 
Think about this: the iPhone has a community of hackers almost as large--if not larger--than the community of Android hackers. Do you think they will ever truly shut that down? Can they? Would they want to?

Brandon
 
Also, when you're at Verizon renewing your contract, do they take the time to go over everything that you're actually signing to? When I initially got a smartphone, the rep kept pushing "unlimited data for only $29.99". There wasn't any mention of tethering or what you can and cannot do with your "unlimited" data. They get your money and tell you to sign on the machine without going over the contract or telling you what you're signing. Honestly how many of us actually read the contract and ToS before signing them?

If you are foolish enough not to read a contract you sign...I have some great ocean front property to sell you in Arizona.

It is your responsibility to know what you are buying, not the salesman, if you do not ask him what is included, that is your fault not his.

Bottom line is, what you chose not to read in the ToS, or you chose to ignore, that's on you. If you dont like it, dont sign it.(but I guess you'd have to read it to know) No one held a gun to your head and made you do it.

So I take it that you are not rooted, never rooted, never uninstalled the bloat, installed a ROM, etc?

LOL!!

Did I say I never did that, or did I say read what you sign?
2 totally different things, I am rooted, have flashed many roms, have hacked up many bloatware crappers, and am happy to do so. Here is the catch, I have never complained about people doing it, I have never bricked my phone in doing so, therefore not making a fraudulant warranty claim, as obtaining root voids your warranty, as implied in the ToS of the contract that I read before I signed. I have helped people to do the same in rooting and flashing roms.

What I said, is, if you dont read a contract you sign, you are stupid. plain and simple. point blank. How do you know what you are agreeing to if you dont read? Half of you say that VZW reps are shady, so why would you trust what they say at face value. You wouldnt so then why complain that they dont tell you everything? That is contradictory, and only more means of complaining and sounding kinda stupid while doing so.
If you do not do research before you go buy something, I dont care what it is, and you get burnt on the deal, thats your fault. We all seem to be able to know the newest news on the next new phone, we all take the time to plan what great new phone we want, how about take the time to educate yourself on the plan you need for this hone to work? Its just common sense, and to see people complain about whats in the ToS, and then say who reads that anyway is silly.
 
Think about this: the iPhone has a community of hackers almost as large--if not larger--than the community of Android hackers. Do you think they will ever truly shut that down? Can they? Would they want to?

Brandon


Beat ya to it back at page 20 or somin :D

But damn this still going on? I just got done restoring just so I can start fresh, figured it would have died down by now
 
If you are foolish enough not to read a contract you sign...I have some great ocean front property to sell you in Arizona.

It is your responsibility to know what you are buying, not the salesman, if you do not ask him what is included, that is your fault not his.

Bottom line is, what you chose not to read in the ToS, or you chose to ignore, that's on you. If you dont like it, dont sign it.(but I guess you'd have to read it to know) No one held a gun to your head and made you do it.

So I take it that you are not rooted, never rooted, never uninstalled the bloat, installed a ROM, etc?

LOL!!

Did I say I never did that, or did I say read what you sign?
2 totally different things, I am rooted, have flashed many roms, have hacked up many bloatware crappers, and am happy to do so. Here is the catch, I have never complained about people doing it, I have never bricked my phone in doing so, therefore not making a fraudulant warranty claim, as obtaining root voids your warranty, as implied in the ToS of the contract that I read before I signed. I have helped people to do the same in rooting and flashing roms.

What I said, is, if you dont read a contract you sign, you are stupid. plain and simple. point blank. How do you know what you are agreeing to if you dont read? Half of you say that VZW reps are shady, so why would you trust what they say at face value. You wouldnt so then why complain that they dont tell you everything? That is contradictory, and only more means of complaining and sounding kinda stupid while doing so.
If you do not do research before you go buy something, I dont care what it is, and you get burnt on the deal, thats your fault. We all seem to be able to know the newest news on the next new phone, we all take the time to plan what great new phone we want, how about take the time to educate yourself on the plan you need for this hone to work? Its just common sense, and to see people complain about whats in the ToS, and then say who reads that anyway is silly.

+100 this is what I've been saying.

Sent from my ADR6400L using DroidForums
 
If you are foolish enough not to read a contract you sign...I have some great ocean front property to sell you in Arizona.

It is your responsibility to know what you are buying, not the salesman, if you do not ask him what is included, that is your fault not his.

Bottom line is, what you chose not to read in the ToS, or you chose to ignore, that's on you. If you dont like it, dont sign it.(but I guess you'd have to read it to know) No one held a gun to your head and made you do it.

So I take it that you are not rooted, never rooted, never uninstalled the bloat, installed a ROM, etc?

LOL!!

Did I say I never did that, or did I say read what you sign?
2 totally different things, I am rooted, have flashed many roms, have hacked up many bloatware crappers, and am happy to do so. Here is the catch, I have never complained about people doing it, I have never bricked my phone in doing so, therefore not making a fraudulant warranty claim, as obtaining root voids your warranty, as implied in the ToS of the contract that I read before I signed. I have helped people to do the same in rooting and flashing roms.

What I said, is, if you dont read a contract you sign, you are stupid. plain and simple. point blank. How do you know what you are agreeing to if you dont read? Half of you say that VZW reps are shady, so why would you trust what they say at face value. You wouldnt so then why complain that they dont tell you everything? That is contradictory, and only more means of complaining and sounding kinda stupid while doing so.
If you do not do research before you go buy something, I dont care what it is, and you get burnt on the deal, thats your fault. We all seem to be able to know the newest news on the next new phone, we all take the time to plan what great new phone we want, how about take the time to educate yourself on the plan you need for this hone to work? Its just common sense, and to see people complain about whats in the ToS, and then say who reads that anyway is silly.

I don't care what the ToS says. That's the truth. I rarely if ever tether. Most of my data plan is wasted because I spend 90-95% of my time on Wifi, so I am not even getting the data that I am paying for.

I understand that VZW doesn't want me to do it, and I don't care. I worry about this as much as I worry about getting caught jay-walking. Sure, it could happen, but the chances are slim and the consequences minimal. What can they do?

VZW- "We caught you tethering 11mb of data over the past 5 months, your contract is terminated".

Me- "Um, ok, that's pretty ghey, but fine, I will sell my DX on eBay for $250 without a contract and go to Sprint and pay less money for a truly unlimited plan and I will come out ahead financially on both counts"

VZW- "Good, we screwed ourselves out of $1500 a year in subscriptions plus whatever upgrades you would have purchased, but it was worth it to stop that $20 profit leak".

Me- "Um, yeah, you guys are geniuses, have a great day."

So I don't care what the ToS says. If they want to term my contract and cost THEM money, so be it.

But that is not what this is about, and it never has been.

Tethering is an excuse to go after rooters, and they want to go after *ALL* rooters because they want to control the content and charge more for services by blocking your ability to get them elsewhere.
 
Think about this: the iPhone has a community of hackers almost as large--if not larger--than the community of Android hackers. Do you think they will ever truly shut that down? Can they? Would they want to?

Brandon


Beat ya to it back at page 20 or somin :D

But damn this still going on? I just got done restoring just so I can start fresh, figured it would have died down by now

There's a big difference in the implementation of the way they are planning on discovering rooted phones then the way iPhone does it. With an iPhone if an update is available, you hook up through iTunes and update that way. Now I suppose if Apple wanted to go after hackers that would be their only recourse. Wait for one of them to plug into iTunes.

Verizon and the other carriers are going to be doing this by OTA updates. It's not anything like the iPhone.

I say to the people who don't believe it's going to happen, don't think it's possible, or just think P3Droid is someone on the internet to go forward and keep rooting. Somebody is going to be right and someone's going to be wrong.

My whole problem with all of this is I can't see them pulling service because the phone is rooted, at least not on a permanent basis. I'm sure that if you go back to stock they will welcome you back. At least the first time. ;)
 
The community coould start developing and building apps and programs outside of roms. Start making our community more than just roms. Because eventuallty people will get tired of roms.
 
If this does prove true I expect VZW to give a big fat warning before taking further action.

sent from the great depths of my phones internet (thanks Al Gore)
 
If this does prove true I expect VZW to give a big fat warning before taking further action.

sent from the great depths of my phones internet (thanks Al Gore)

Agreed


And just because p3 is a respected member it doesnt make him all mighty and all knowing. He can still make mistakes. Everyone here seems to worship him. Not naming names but we can tell who u are by your posts.

Sent from my ADR6400L using DroidForums
 
The community coould start developing and building apps and programs outside of roms. Start making our community more than just roms. Because eventuallty people will get tired of roms.

Good point. But I know that Android people don't root just to get Custom ROM's. They want to remove bloatware as well. And that's what Verizon doesn't want.
 
Decided to look at my data usage over the last quarter.

I am averaging 155mb a month. When I looked at my usage for the 3 months prior, it was about the same.

And that included a bit of (gasp!)... TETHERING! LOL

So yeah, I guess that with my whopping 150mb a month total usage, I was stealing from my UNLIMITED DATA plan.

hehe
 
If this does prove true I expect VZW to give a big fat warning before taking further action.

sent from the great depths of my phones internet (thanks Al Gore)

Agreed


And just because p3 is a respected member it doesnt make him all mighty and all knowing. He can still make mistakes. Everyone here seems to worship him. Not naming names but we can tell who u are by your posts.

Sent from my ADR6400L using DroidForums

Oh. Well, I wish I could but I really can't.

I called P3 Droid wrong when they said there would be no Gingerbread for D2. Turned out P3 Droid never said that, but the person who said he saw the tweet was pretty convincing.

Here's the thing: P3 Droid has no interest and nothing to gain by sharing this information. If you choose not to believe it, I totally understand. But in this case it makes sense. At least it does to me.
 
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