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P3Droid: Some Food for Thought - Bootloaders, Rooting, Manufacturers, and Carriers

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You are still missing the point. I cannot explain it any simpler for you other than to say that it is like the water company analogy.

You pay for water, but then they tell you that you cannot shower with that water that you already paid for. If you want to bathe, then you need to pay another fee, for the same water.

How many times should we pay for the same amount of water?

I am not a sheeple for asking the questions. The sheeple are the ones that never question anything and just blindly follow whatever the Mother Ship hands them...

I love it when people say "you are missing the point". It shows a level of ignorance that I can only laugh or cry at it.

Fact: Tethering is a product sold by VZW.

Fact: It is a profit product for VZW.

Fact: Sheeple are paying for this product.

Those facts can't be argued with. I really don't give a flying-flip how you want to spin this. I am pointing out FACTS and only FACTS.

Your opinion that they shouldn't be allowed to double deep is irrelevant to those facts. Your opinion of how things should be done is also irrelevant to those facts. The sooner you figure this out this better off you will be as a consumer.

Pay for tethering and you are telling VZW life is golden. If you don't you better make sure the other people that are paying stop as well or your spin/opinion doesn't mean JACK.

+1

People need to stop looking at the definition of unlimited data in the dictionary and instead look it up in their Terms of Service contract. That's what matters in the real world.
If what I've seen from SquireSCA, he isn't debating it being in the ToS. I will admit it's in there. It doesn't mean I have to agree with the concept. I agree with him that it's BS. I also agree that if you tether without paying you are in violation of the ToS. I rarely tether, but when I do, I know I'm violating my Tos. If they want to kick me off their service, I can take my $180+ per month to another carrier. Somehow I doubt they'll do that, but they'll make it harder to do the tethering if they can.

Once again, I know it's in the ToS, and I'm not arguing that. What I am arguing is that if we continue to allow companies to rape us for this stuff, the slippery slope is very likely. What if Verizon decides to disable speaker phones on all phones and decides since speaker phones are a convenience allowing more than one people to be involved in the conversation that they want an extra $10 per month to reactivate it. If they put it in their ToS, I wouldn't automatically start agreeing with it.

This is why I think, if this has any truth, it is because the carriers want to lock down the phones so they can force us to use what they want us to use and create additional revenue streams. I don't think it is necessarily about tethering, but about the greater openness of the system. They want to force us to use their programs at what ever they want to charge us. They don't like that we have options, and that Dev's can create a program that often times works better than theirs and is free.

Josh
 
I love it when people say "you are missing the point". It shows a level of ignorance that I can only laugh or cry at it.

Fact: Tethering is a product sold by VZW.

Fact: It is a profit product for VZW.

Fact: Sheeple are paying for this product.

Those facts can't be argued with. I really don't give a flying-flip how you want to spin this. I am pointing out FACTS and only FACTS.

Your opinion that they shouldn't be allowed to double deep is irrelevant to those facts. Your opinion of how things should be done is also irrelevant to those facts. The sooner you figure this out this better off you will be as a consumer.

Pay for tethering and you are telling VZW life is golden. If you don't you better make sure the other people that are paying stop as well or your spin/opinion doesn't mean JACK.

+1

People need to stop looking at the definition of unlimited data in the dictionary and instead look it up in their Terms of Service contract. That's what matters in the real world.
If what I've seen from SquireSCA, he isn't debating it being in the ToS. I will admit it's in there. It doesn't mean I have to agree with the concept. I agree with him that it's BS. I also agree that if you tether without paying you are in violation of the ToS. I rarely tether, but when I do, I know I'm violating my Tos. If they want to kick me off their service, I can take my $180+ per month to another carrier. Somehow I doubt they'll do that, but they'll make it harder to do the tethering if they can.

Once again, I know it's in the ToS, and I'm not arguing that. What I am arguing is that if we continue to allow companies to rape us for this stuff, the slippery slope is very likely. What if Verizon decides to disable speaker phones on all phones and decides since speaker phones are a convenience allowing more than one people to be involved in the conversation that they want an extra $10 per month to reactivate it. If they put it in their ToS, I wouldn't automatically start agreeing with it.

This is why I think, if this has any truth, it is because the carriers want to lock down the phones so they can force us to use what they want us to use and create additional revenue streams. I don't think it is necessarily about tethering, but about the greater openness of the system. They want to force us to use their programs at what ever they want to charge us. They don't like that we have options, and that Dev's can create a program that often times works better than theirs and is free.

Josh

Thank you Josh, for getting it. ;-)
 
@P3Droid: For those worried, just don't tether w/o a plan No matter what build you are on. Things are moving faster than I thought.

P3Droid Last night was stressful, but today is a new day. Knowing the focus of it all helps though. - So in summurization - don't tether w/o a plan

I'm simply telling you what he's saying. You make your own judgements

if he remained like that last night and throughout this entire thing i think the thread would have been a lot calmer.

But from last night..... i have no reason to believe him (he could be or couldn't be right, i will eat crow if i have to) I tend to stay away from the crazies.

and not tether without a plan should be common sense.... but there are those ppl :icon_eek:

we will see in time.

Last night he was flailing his arms and running around the streets in panic telling everyone to go back to stock as well. You would have thought Verizon was going to show up on everyone's doorstep and commandeer their rooted phones.

From her tone you would have thought we were on the verge of mass extinction lol......





Sent from my Droid
 
I love it when people say "you are missing the point". It shows a level of ignorance that I can only laugh or cry at it.

Fact: Tethering is a product sold by VZW.

Fact: It is a profit product for VZW.

Fact: Sheeple are paying for this product.

Those facts can't be argued with. I really don't give a flying-flip how you want to spin this. I am pointing out FACTS and only FACTS.

Your opinion that they shouldn't be allowed to double deep is irrelevant to those facts. Your opinion of how things should be done is also irrelevant to those facts. The sooner you figure this out this better off you will be as a consumer.

Pay for tethering and you are telling VZW life is golden. If you don't you better make sure the other people that are paying stop as well or your spin/opinion doesn't mean JACK.

+1

People need to stop looking at the definition of unlimited data in the dictionary and instead look it up in their Terms of Service contract. That's what matters in the real world.
If what I've seen from SquireSCA, he isn't debating it being in the ToS. I will admit it's in there. It doesn't mean I have to agree with the concept. I agree with him that it's BS. I also agree that if you tether without paying you are in violation of the ToS. I rarely tether, but when I do, I know I'm violating my Tos. If they want to kick me off their service, I can take my $180+ per month to another carrier. Somehow I doubt they'll do that, but they'll make it harder to do the tethering if they can.

Once again, I know it's in the ToS, and I'm not arguing that. What I am arguing is that if we continue to allow companies to rape us for this stuff, the slippery slope is very likely. What if Verizon decides to disable speaker phones on all phones and decides since speaker phones are a convenience allowing more than one people to be involved in the conversation that they want an extra $10 per month to reactivate it. If they put it in their ToS, I wouldn't automatically start agreeing with it.

This is why I think, if this has any truth, it is because the carriers want to lock down the phones so they can force us to use what they want us to use and create additional revenue streams. I don't think it is necessarily about tethering, but about the greater openness of the system. They want to force us to use their programs at what ever they want to charge us. They don't like that we have options, and that Dev's can create a program that often times works better than theirs and is free.

Josh

I don't consider the speakerphone thing a good analogy because it's not similar to tethering. You using your speaker to talk on the phone has nothing to do with Verizon's network. It doesn't undergo some added load because people use their speakers, nor does the load lighten when people don't. That would be like Verizon charging you to scroll through your contacts or something. Apples and oranges comparison

Tethering is you extending the service you pay for, for only your phone to another device. Verizon, in my opinion, has every right to charge for that, no matter how much BS it is (and it is BS). They have to protect their network, and they have to make a profit and you have to pay for every device that uses their network. Why is it fair for them to have family plans where multiple people have phones and you have to pay for each of them even though they're on your same plan? How come no one argues about that? That's the goal of any business. They would be stupid not to charge for tethering, and if I ran Verizon I'd charge for it too.
 
@P3Droid: For those worried, just don't tether w/o a plan No matter what build you are on. Things are moving faster than I thought.

P3Droid Last night was stressful, but today is a new day. Knowing the focus of it all helps though. - So in summurization - don't tether w/o a plan

I'm simply telling you what he's saying. You make your own judgements

if he remained like that last night and throughout this entire thing i think the thread would have been a lot calmer.

But from last night..... i have no reason to believe him (he could be or couldn't be right, i will eat crow if i have to) I tend to stay away from the crazies.

and not tether without a plan should be common sense.... but there are those ppl :icon_eek:

we will see in time.

Last night he was flailing his arms and running around the streets in panic telling everyone to go back to stock as well. You would have thought Verizon was going to show up on everyone's doorstep and commandeer their rooted phones.

From her tone you would have thought we were on the verge of mass extinction lol......





Sent from my Droid

Yeah yesterday's stuff was kinda ridiculous...he seems to have calmed down today, but I'm still wary about it. Whatever, we'll see what happens.
 
You using your speaker to talk on the phone has nothing to do with Verizon's network. It doesn't undergo some added load because people use their speakers, nor does the load lighten when people don't

But what if your tethering didn't cause added load on their network?

I think that is where a lot of confusion comes in, because as soon as you mention tethering, most people immediately think of the kid tethering his XBox, or having his laptop running torrents all day.

But what of the people like you, or me, that use a couple hundred mb a month... MB, not GB, and that includes tethering?

My point is not whether or not the ToS says that they can, or whether they should be allowed to. They can, and they do.

But for all the people that just say, "Hey, Verizon says that's the way it is"... It is only that way because their customers let them be that way.

If they said they were going to sell us unlimited trips to my back yard to pick up dog poo for $20 and everyone said, "OK" and paid up, why wouldn't they?

Just because a company does something and initially gets away with it, doesn't mean that as the customers, who happen to be the ONLY reason that there is a VZW in the first place, get fed up and demand change, that at some point there won't be.

Look at other industries that came before, that were where VZW is now. They charged you for the phone line and each phone. They charged you for the cable line and how many TV's you have hooked up. They even used to have trucks that drive around and scanned and if your house buried their meter, then they knew that you probably had cable pumped into every room in your house.

They wanted to charge extra for internet service because they said that 2 computers will pull more data than 1 would, even though both were limited by the 56k modem. LOL

Point is, yes, this is the way it is. For now. When enough people get fed up and complain, or some other company decides to fill that void with a better service or better pricing, then VZW will have to change their tune or lose money.

Look at how many Android devices sell these days... What are they up to? 300,000 activations, per DAY now?

If VZW wants to lock them down and nickle and dime their millions of customers to death, someone else, maybe Sprint, will step in and say "Hey, we give you better rates, don't charge you to death and only we offer you the Freedom on the Android platform that you want"...

They would have more new subscriptions than they knew what to do with, if VZW were to keep turning the screws to their customers.

You can only get so greedy. At some point people get fed up, demand more and someone is always willing to step up to the plate and provide it.
 
I love it when people say "you are missing the point". It shows a level of ignorance that I can only laugh or cry at it.

Fact: Tethering is a product sold by VZW.

Fact: It is a profit product for VZW.

Fact: Sheeple are paying for this product.

Those facts can't be argued with. I really don't give a flying-flip how you want to spin this. I am pointing out FACTS and only FACTS.

Your opinion that they shouldn't be allowed to double deep is irrelevant to those facts. Your opinion of how things should be done is also irrelevant to those facts. The sooner you figure this out this better off you will be as a consumer.

Pay for tethering and you are telling VZW life is golden. If you don't you better make sure the other people that are paying stop as well or your spin/opinion doesn't mean JACK.

+1

People need to stop looking at the definition of unlimited data in the dictionary and instead look it up in their Terms of Service contract. That's what matters in the real world.
If what I've seen from SquireSCA, he isn't debating it being in the ToS. I will admit it's in there. It doesn't mean I have to agree with the concept. I agree with him that it's BS. I also agree that if you tether without paying you are in violation of the ToS. I rarely tether, but when I do, I know I'm violating my Tos. If they want to kick me off their service, I can take my $180+ per month to another carrier. Somehow I doubt they'll do that, but they'll make it harder to do the tethering if they can.

Once again, I know it's in the ToS, and I'm not arguing that. What I am arguing is that if we continue to allow companies to rape us for this stuff, the slippery slope is very likely. What if Verizon decides to disable speaker phones on all phones and decides since speaker phones are a convenience allowing more than one people to be involved in the conversation that they want an extra $10 per month to reactivate it. If they put it in their ToS, I wouldn't automatically start agreeing with it.

This is why I think, if this has any truth, it is because the carriers want to lock down the phones so they can force us to use what they want us to use and create additional revenue streams. I don't think it is necessarily about tethering, but about the greater openness of the system. They want to force us to use their programs at what ever they want to charge us. They don't like that we have options, and that Dev's can create a program that often times works better than theirs and is free.

Josh

What I'm saying is the rape is consentual. People are opting in. If you are saying that most of the people signing up are not educating themselves beforehand, then I completely agree. Most people don't read the TOS.

Verizon can't force us to do anything. They make an offering and people are accepting that offer. That's why there is the TOS. It is so all products and services is detailed out so expectations are properly set for both parties. If Verizon makes a change in the TOS, it would be for future customers and they will have to make that decision for themselves. Your current TOS would not change and that's how some people are still grandfathered in favorable contracts.

If you want change, you need to educate the consumer and there must be enough people who care enough to make a difference by changing how they spend their money. Verizon is going to try to make the most money they can and will offer the deal that most people are willing to accept to do just that.
 
if he remained like that last night and throughout this entire thing i think the thread would have been a lot calmer.

But from last night..... i have no reason to believe him (he could be or couldn't be right, i will eat crow if i have to) I tend to stay away from the crazies.

and not tether without a plan should be common sense.... but there are those ppl :icon_eek:

we will see in time.

Last night he was flailing his arms and running around the streets in panic telling everyone to go back to stock as well. You would have thought Verizon was going to show up on everyone's doorstep and commandeer their rooted phones.

From her tone you would have thought we were on the verge of mass extinction lol......





Sent from my Droid

Yeah yesterday's stuff was kinda ridiculous...he seems to have calmed down today, but I'm still wary about it. Whatever, we'll see what happens.

You can still remain rooted czerdrill. There is absolutely nothing to worry about. Nobody will be cutting your sevice and going after you : ) that's just ridiculous.

Sent from my Droid
 
All VZW SHOULD be able to say is "well....it's your warranty" but outside of that providing we aren't abusing their network we SHOULD be good.
 
All VZW SHOULD be able to say is "well....it's your warranty" but outside of that providing we aren't abusing their network we SHOULD be good.

But some of are not in total agreement with that, either.

As is the case with cars, the manufacturer has to be able to show that the modifications or the parts that you used were the CAUSE of the problem, before they can deny a warranty claim.

I think that if you root, and later on a defective battery fries the phone, or a button falls off or the screen dies, you absolutely should get a warranty replacement or repair, regardless of whether you rooted or not.

Why? Because one had nothing to do with the other. Now, if you root and brick it, fine, they can show that you messing with it caused the problem and deny your claim and you are SOL.
 
@czerdrill

I understand that the speaker phone may not directly increase network load, but neither does tethering. Tethering can be used for someone to hop online to send a couple emails while on the road, or log into their companies/schools network to get some information. It's not always about downloading torrents and xbox gaming and replacing home internet. This is why I think Verizon is going about this entirely wrong.

My solution:

Tiered Data, with realistic data levels at different prices:

$10 = 500mb/month
$20 = 2GB/month
$30 = 5GB/month
$40 = 10GB/month
$50 = 25GB/month

$5 per extra GB over
You could do just a $10/$30/$50 option if having 5 options would be too much. That way low data users could save a few bux. 90%+ would fit in at what we are paying now, and a high data package for people doing a lot of data. Unfortunately, their current stance of unlimited(except when they say so) is not a good one. I have had a couple months of no tethering where I exceeded 5GB, solely based on streaming music/video for hours on end. Add in redownloading several hundreds of MB's everytime I put a new rom on my phone.

All I'm saying is they need to figure out a different approach to this problem. Unfortunately, I don't believe tethering is the main problem, so tiered data won't change their stance on locking down the phones.

Josh
 
+1

People need to stop looking at the definition of unlimited data in the dictionary and instead look it up in their Terms of Service contract. That's what matters in the real world.
If what I've seen from SquireSCA, he isn't debating it being in the ToS. I will admit it's in there. It doesn't mean I have to agree with the concept. I agree with him that it's BS. I also agree that if you tether without paying you are in violation of the ToS. I rarely tether, but when I do, I know I'm violating my Tos. If they want to kick me off their service, I can take my $180+ per month to another carrier. Somehow I doubt they'll do that, but they'll make it harder to do the tethering if they can.

Once again, I know it's in the ToS, and I'm not arguing that. What I am arguing is that if we continue to allow companies to rape us for this stuff, the slippery slope is very likely. What if Verizon decides to disable speaker phones on all phones and decides since speaker phones are a convenience allowing more than one people to be involved in the conversation that they want an extra $10 per month to reactivate it. If they put it in their ToS, I wouldn't automatically start agreeing with it.

This is why I think, if this has any truth, it is because the carriers want to lock down the phones so they can force us to use what they want us to use and create additional revenue streams. I don't think it is necessarily about tethering, but about the greater openness of the system. They want to force us to use their programs at what ever they want to charge us. They don't like that we have options, and that Dev's can create a program that often times works better than theirs and is free.

Josh

What I'm saying is the rape is consentual. People are opting in. If you are saying that most of the people signing up are not educating themselves beforehand, then I completely agree. Most people don't read the TOS.

Verizon can't force us to do anything. They make an offering and people are accepting that offer. That's why there is the TOS. It is so all products and services is detailed out so expectations are properly set for both parties. If Verizon makes a change in the TOS, it would be for future customers and they will have to make that decision for themselves. Your current TOS would not change and that's how some people are still grandfathered in favorable contracts.

If you want change, you need to educate the consumer and there must be enough people who care enough to make a difference by changing how they spend their money. Verizon is going to try to make the most money they can and will offer the deal that most people are willing to accept to do just that.

I agree, it is the people who accept it with out question and pay the exorbitant amounts for this that are telling VZW it's ok. But by being loud and making noise on forums like these, hopefully others will begin to see that it is a bad deal to accept these prices. I also agree that VZW doesn't care about such a minority complaining and will do what makes them money. But maybe another company will see an opportunity and start stealing marketshare. That might open their eyes some.

Josh

Again, I disagree with their practices, but accept their ToS and and penalties I may receive if I break them since I need the phone service they provide. My goal is to let others know that just because companies tell us something should be one way, doesn't mean we have to sit by quietly. Don't break the ToS if you don't want to accept the penalties, but let them and everyone else know that you don't agree with their business practices and refuse to pay for a service that is a rip off.
 
All VZW SHOULD be able to say is "well....it's your warranty" but outside of that providing we aren't abusing their network we SHOULD be good.

But some of are not in total agreement with that, either.

As is the case with cars, the manufacturer has to be able to show that the modifications or the parts that you used were the CAUSE of the problem, before they can deny a warranty claim.

I think that if you root, and later on a defective battery fries the phone, or a button falls off or the screen dies, you absolutely should get a warranty replacement or repair, regardless of whether you rooted or not.

Why? Because one had nothing to do with the other. Now, if you root and brick it, fine, they can show that you messing with it caused the problem and deny your claim and you are SOL.

yeah I agree with that. But you get what I am saying. They shouldn't be able to say "if you root....we disconnect"
 
If you tether without authorization, you violate the ToS.
If you root, you violate the ToS.
I'm not saying it's right. I'm not saying it's fair. Whining here will do nothing. Get over your entitled self. These are the terms.
 
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