VZW disabling tethering apps from market

[preusstang]

There is no gray area man. What is the gray area. I can tell you the black and white area: Not allowed by TOS. Can you conceptualize the gray area? Cuz I don't see it. Saying it's not fair for light tetherers is not a gray area. That's just people trying to justify circumventing a paid service.

What are people paying for. What service. They not using the VZW app, they not using a VZW computer. You already paid for the phone and the data. So other than lining VZW pockets what extra feature does me paying $20 get me. It's a dinosaur plan for blackberry devices. No special switch goes on, no magic power source, nothing other than VZW getting paid. I pay the $20 bucks and if you ask me I should be paying the money to the devs of pdanet and wifi tether for making better apps.

sent from droidforums app

The service of tethering, which Verizon distinguished as a service and you agreed to. How do you not get that?

The problem with tether-er's arguments are that it always go back to this moral issue. "It's not fair, I already paid". What you're missing, or refuse to accept, is that tethering is not included in your data allotment. There is no gray area. You are not allowed to tether if you don't pay. It doesn't matter if it's the same data, if it's a laptop, or you tether your dog. They want $20 bucks if you tether, you agreed to it, and then you found a way to do it without paying $20. So...you're wrong.

The "gray area" is that you don't want to admit that you're stealing (not talking about you, I'm talking about the people who swear they're right)

Really, stealing what? Itz like VZW saying you can't use google maps because you didn't agree to the $15 a month for vznavigator and that they are the ones transferring your data. Its their GPS in your phone too, I bet. And the wireless card.

As long as you're not going of your infinite but now somehow finite data plan usage, you can use that data how you please; if I wanna transfer it to and from my other devices using my own airwaves, that is my business.

Stealing what? Tethering is not a service that VZW can even consider offering. Its not their domain. I could swear there are some verizon reps in here right now. Hahaha.

What's next? No more google voice? No more free visual voicemail? No more almost free voIP? They could do that you know, if tethering is against TOS. Tethering doesn't make you use anymore data than usual bro. Without tethering you can still run bit torrent clients on your phone, downloading huge amounts of data, same as a pc. Those are probably against TOC too though huh?

By user tethering, no extra labor and no extra cost are incurred by VZW. They simply wish to get more money out of your pocket for things that are already free.

 

[cynnar]

Thats what i was figuring it was .... agreed its illegal but still wouldn't it be possible to make an app that makes a backdoor protection on the packets sent, testing them or altering them so that it would seem as if was requested by the phone. I know that it is possible to alter the packets sent by a desktop but for the phone i don't know enough about it.

Still this would only be putting off the certain that a crackdown will happen, it would just be some added protection for those sometimes tethers as most people are

The way I look at it is if someone is smart enough to be able to track it there is someone smart enough to pass it. That is how we got root after all.

Sent from my Droid

 

[czerdrill]

What are people paying for. What service. They not using the VZW app, they not using a VZW computer. You already paid for the phone and the data. So other than lining VZW pockets what extra feature does me paying $20 get me. It's a dinosaur plan for blackberry devices. No special switch goes on, no magic power source, nothing other than VZW getting paid. I pay the $20 bucks and if you ask me I should be paying the money to the devs of pdanet and wifi tether for making better apps.

sent from droidforums app

The service of tethering, which Verizon distinguished as a service and you agreed to. How do you not get that?

The problem with tether-er's arguments are that it always go back to this moral issue. "It's not fair, I already paid". What you're missing, or refuse to accept, is that tethering is not included in your data allotment. There is no gray area. You are not allowed to tether if you don't pay. It doesn't matter if it's the same data, if it's a laptop, or you tether your dog. They want $20 bucks if you tether, you agreed to it, and then you found a way to do it without paying $20. So...you're wrong.

The "gray area" is that you don't want to admit that you're stealing (not talking about you, I'm talking about the people who swear they're right)

Really, stealing what? Itz like VZW saying you can't use google maps because you didn't agree to the $15 a month for vznavigator and that they are the ones transferring your data. Its their GPS in your phone too, I bet. And the wireless card.

As long as you're not going of your infinite but now somehow finite data plan usage, you can use that data how you please; if I wanna transfer it to and from my other devices using my own airwaves, that is my business.

Stealing what? Tethering is not a service that VZW can even consider offering. Its not their domain. I could swear there are some verizon reps in here right now. Hahaha.

What's next? No more google voice? No more free visual voicemail? No more almost free voIP? They could do that you know, if tethering is against TOS. Tethering doesn't make you use anymore data than usual bro. Without tethering you can still run bit torrent clients on your phone, downloading huge amounts of data, same as a pc. Those are probably against TOC too though huh?

By user tethering, no extra labor and no extra cost are incurred by VZW. They simply wish to get more money out of your pocket for things that are already free.

I support you using your data "as you please", in fact I encourage you to do so (it will provide entertainment later). I just ask that when/if you get caught you don't start a thread saying "OMGGGGG VERIZON IS THE DEVIL!!!" cuz you'll be laughed at.

 

[cmaag]

Thats what i was figuring it was .... agreed its illegal but still wouldn't it be possible to make an app that makes a backdoor protection on the packets sent, testing them or altering them so that it would seem as if was requested by the phone. I know that it is possible to alter the packets sent by a desktop but for the phone i don't know enough about it.

Still this would only be putting off the certain that a crackdown will happen, it would just be some added protection for those sometimes tethers as most people are

The way I look at it is if someone is smart enough to be able to track it there is someone smart enough to pass it. That is how we got root after all.

Sent from my Droid

Agreed it will be done as it always is ...

 

[czerdrill]

Thats what i was figuring it was .... agreed its illegal but still wouldn't it be possible to make an app that makes a backdoor protection on the packets sent, testing them or altering them so that it would seem as if was requested by the phone. I know that it is possible to alter the packets sent by a desktop but for the phone i don't know enough about it.

Still this would only be putting off the certain that a crackdown will happen, it would just be some added protection for those sometimes tethers as most people are

The way I look at it is if someone is smart enough to be able to track it there is someone smart enough to pass it. That is how we got root after all.

Sent from my Droid

Rooting is not something that is difficult to accomplish nor does it have any effect on the network (unless you're tethering of course). If someone is going to manipulate the network to bypass something verizon has set up it's not going to be some easy thing to do nor are the android devs good enough to do something like that.

This reminds me of people swearing that they were able to get twice the download speeds, by adjusting something in smali...lol...really? VZW puts control of throttling on the user's phone itself? Just flip the switch and you now have unbridled control of the network? Jokes.

 

[cynnar]

because they don't act like they're disregarding it. they act as if they believe that they're entitled to it. it's not like they're posting "this is illegal and i dont caree!!!" rather they're saying "if you bring your family of 5 to a chinese buffet and buy eat two pints of chow mein, the fork you are using is the cellphone and the plate you eat on is verizon" or some ridiculous analogy.

like i said earlier, if they actually said "yeah we know its illegal and we don't care" no one here would be able to say anything in return. you are acting as if they've been saying this all along or something, and not trying to justify it...

IMO those are the ones who do not care to educate themselves on what they are doing. I never once said I was entitled to it but yet I was treated that way.

Sent from my Droid

Well I'm being honest, you seemed to be saying that until now. That's why people were responding to you the way they did...

That is just my point. I should not have to defend what I say because someone assumes I tether and Verizon owes it to me. And those are the ones who assume that all those who tether think the are owed it.


Now you know why I put up a fight. It should not matter if you think I'm guilty. I should be able to voice my opinion without having to fight that I know it is wrong.
Sent from my Droid

 

[kodiak799]

... but still wouldn't it be possible to make an app that makes a backdoor protection on the packets sent, testing them or altering them so that it would seem as if was requested by the phone.

That is apparently what PDA.net is doing with a beta function they just rolled out in 3.0. Whether it works or if VZW could still get around it if they so chose (seems maybe the simplest solution would be for VZW to bury code in new phones to disable or simply tell them when people are tethering - of course custom roms starting from scratch would work around).

Even then, there are obviously certain sites you could go to that are a dead give away - such as streaming Netflix movies (which as it comes to newer handsets people could view legitimately on their phone).

And I wonder if anyone downloading a file over 25 megs is also an indicator of violating TOS (roms, for example, although technically maybe not a violation of TOS). Since most email I'm aware of prevents sending files over 20-25 megs, larger files are pretty much limited to roms, torrents and netflix (and I'm sure I'm missing some). Of course, I think you could legit sync dropbox files much larger than that, so who knows.

I agree with others the issue mostly goes away with tiered services. Seems like it would require too much effort (and cost) for VZW to distinguish between legit use and tethering use. Price becomes another issue, however. Capping at 3gigs with tether for $30 is going to upset a lot of people, even if they are using much less normally. 5gigs for $30 would be much more palatable, but then if they include tether they will cannibalize mobile broadband revenues.

I don't envy VZW here. Coming up with a win-win scenario for VZW and its customers is going to be very difficult. Maybe ultimately they block the apps in the market, add a $5/500meg tier and just accept some people fall thru the cracks and monitor heavy users (and/or throttle). Won't eliminate the problem but maybe 80-90% reduction in illegal tethering is an acceptable and reasonable outcome. And a $5 tier would probably thrill a good number of customers.

 

[preusstang]

The service of tethering, which Verizon distinguished as a service and you agreed to. How do you not get that?

The problem with tether-er's arguments are that it always go back to this moral issue. "It's not fair, I already paid". What you're missing, or refuse to accept, is that tethering is not included in your data allotment. There is no gray area. You are not allowed to tether if you don't pay. It doesn't matter if it's the same data, if it's a laptop, or you tether your dog. They want $20 bucks if you tether, you agreed to it, and then you found a way to do it without paying $20. So...you're wrong.

The "gray area" is that you don't want to admit that you're stealing (not talking about you, I'm talking about the people who swear they're right)

Really, stealing what? Itz like VZW saying you can't use google maps because you didn't agree to the $15 a month for vznavigator and that they are the ones transferring your data. Its their GPS in your phone too, I bet. And the wireless card.

As long as you're not going of your infinite but now somehow finite data plan usage, you can use that data how you please; if I wanna transfer it to and from my other devices using my own airwaves, that is my business.

Stealing what? Tethering is not a service that VZW can even consider offering. Its not their domain. I could swear there are some verizon reps in here right now. Hahaha.

What's next? No more google voice? No more free visual voicemail? No more almost free voIP? They could do that you know, if tethering is against TOS. Tethering doesn't make you use anymore data than usual bro. Without tethering you can still run bit torrent clients on your phone, downloading huge amounts of data, same as a pc. Those are probably against TOC too though huh?

By user tethering, no extra labor and no extra cost are incurred by VZW. They simply wish to get more money out of your pocket for things that are already free.

I support you using your data "as you please", in fact I encourage you to do so (it will provide entertainment later). I just ask that when/if you get caught you don't start a thread saying "OMGGGGG VERIZON IS THE DEVIL!!!" cuz you'll be laughed at.

I have no interest in posting that here, or anywhere for that matter. If / when they catch me, while staying well below 2GB a month, and they charge me anything extra, Ill be going to court. And ill be bringing up the false advertising for unlimited data. I signed nothing stating that my unlimited was actually limited. Ill do it for the lulz. And because someone has to stand up.

But don't worry, you wont be hearing it from me. Id sooner win the lottery than any of this hypothetical situation take place

 

[kodiak799]

If / when they catch me, while staying well below 2GB a month, and they charge me anything extra, Ill be going to court.

LOL, no you're not. I seriously doubt you would pay an attorney thousands of dollars to fight a case you almost assuredly would lose, rather than just pay the few hundred bucks VZW backcharges you. Or, if you don't care about your credit, you'd just walk away and go to another carrier.

 

[pc747]

I just spent another hour with tech reps and its apparent they have no clue what is going on. When I got my d1 two years ago I tried to.buy a tethering plan but the reps argued that my Droid could not tether. Well I am having a similar issue. Like I told the rep I do not want to use a mobile hotspot because the tbolt have bad battery life any way and the app reboots on me after 5 mins of use. So I want to use the wired tether plan they have for the incredible. I was being told that the tbolt can't do wired tether. Well I assured multiple reps (cuz I been through 4 of them) that it could. They said there is no program for it. So I go, same thing I said 2 yrs ago, since I can get it to work can I just pay you the 15 bucks a month so I don't violate my tos. I was told they had no way of putting that service on my plan. So VZW needs to.get their stuff together first then go after people. Because say they pop me.for tethering well they got to.charge me a tethering plan. Well if no wired tethering plan exist then what you gonna charge me with. You can't charge me with a mobile hot spot plan cuz I wasnt using my phone as that. And if you gonna charge me with a tethering plan then why did you not sign me up before when I called about it. So I am basically trying to go.about it.the right way VZW just don't seem to.be set up for it, hence why they prob turned a blind eye to pdanet users. The issue is that pdanet users are getting out of control because they gave room for people to use wireless tethering which brought in people using it as a mobile hot spot and racking up large amounts of data. Problem is if VZW don't put the plans in place but they try to crack down on it then they are running in circles. Cuz you have people trying to do it legitimately but you claim you.don't have a plan for their device.

sent from droidforums app

 

[freezyfreaky]

Really, stealing what? Itz like VZW saying you can't use google maps because you didn't agree to the $15 a month for vznavigator and that they are the ones transferring your data. Its their GPS in your phone too, I bet. And the wireless card.

As long as you're not going of your infinite but now somehow finite data plan usage, you can use that data how you please; if I wanna transfer it to and from my other devices using my own airwaves, that is my business.

Stealing what? Tethering is not a service that VZW can even consider offering. Its not their domain. I could swear there are some verizon reps in here right now. Hahaha.

What's next? No more google voice? No more free visual voicemail? No more almost free voIP? They could do that you know, if tethering is against TOS. Tethering doesn't make you use anymore data than usual bro. Without tethering you can still run bit torrent clients on your phone, downloading huge amounts of data, same as a pc. Those are probably against TOC too though huh?

By user tethering, no extra labor and no extra cost are incurred by VZW. They simply wish to get more money out of your pocket for things that are already free.

I support you using your data "as you please", in fact I encourage you to do so (it will provide entertainment later). I just ask that when/if you get caught you don't start a thread saying "OMGGGGG VERIZON IS THE DEVIL!!!" cuz you'll be laughed at.

I have no interest in posting that here, or anywhere for that matter. If / when they catch me, while staying well below 2GB a month, and they charge me anything extra, Ill be going to court. And ill be bringing up the false advertising for unlimited data. I signed nothing stating that my unlimited was actually limited. Ill do it for the lulz. And because someone has to stand up.

But don't worry, you wont be hearing it from me. Id sooner win the lottery than any of this hypothetical situation take place

I post this a couple of pages back but it's in the Customer Agreement:

How Do I Accept This Agreement?
You accept this agreement by:
Agreeing in writing, by email, over the phone, or in person;
Opening a package that says you are accepting by opening it; or
Activating your Service.
When you accept, you're representing that you are at least 18 years old and are legally able to accept an agreement. If you're accepting for an organization, you're representing that you are authorized to bind that organization, and where the context requires, "you" means the organization.

If you don't want to accept, don't do any of these things. If you do accept, you can cancel a line of Service within 14 days of accepting without having to pay an early termination fee as long as you return any equipment you purchased from us at the time you accepted, but you'll still have to pay for your Service through that date. If you signed up for Prepaid Service, no refunds will be granted after 14 days or if your account has been activated.

And yes, P2P apps on your phone and tethering are explicitly prohibited in your TOS. You can find that here: Data Plans & Features - Terms & Conditions - Verizon Wireless Support

I agree that it is highly unlikely that any unauthorized tetherer will be brought up on criminal charges especially with the usage you described.

 

[czerdrill]

I just spent another hour with tech reps and its apparent they have no clue what is going on. When I got my d1 two years ago I tried to.buy a tethering plan but the reps argued that my Droid could not tether. Well I am having a similar issue. Like I told the rep I do not want to use a mobile hotspot because the tbolt have bad battery life any way and the app reboots on me after 5 mins of use. So I want to use the wired tether plan they have for the incredible. I was being told that the tbolt can't do wired tether. Well I assured multiple reps (cuz I been through 4 of them) that it could. They said there is no program for it. So I go, same thing I said 2 yrs ago, since I can get it to work can I just pay you the 15 bucks a month so I don't violate my tos. I was told they had no way of putting that service on my plan. So VZW needs to.get their stuff together first then go after people. Because say they pop me.for tethering well they got to.charge me a tethering plan. Well if no wired tethering plan exist then what you gonna charge me with. You can't charge me with a mobile hot spot plan cuz I wasnt using my phone as that. And if you gonna charge me with a tethering plan then why did you not sign me up before when I called about it. So I am basically trying to go.about it.the right way VZW just don't seem to.be set up for it, hence why they prob turned a blind eye to pdanet users. The issue is that pdanet users are getting out of control because they gave room for people to use wireless tethering which brought in people using it as a mobile hot spot and racking up large amounts of data. Problem is if VZW don't put the plans in place but they try to crack down on it then they are running in circles. Cuz you have people trying to do it legitimately but you claim you.don't have a plan for their device.

sent from droidforums app

Ask to speak to a manger, or an upper level person. Talking to people who are making $10/hr is not going to get you the answers you need.

 

[kodiak799]

I agree that it is highly unlikely that any unauthorized tetherer will be brought up on criminal charges especially with the usage you described.

There's no criminal liability here, but they can certainly go after you in civil court for fees/damages.

As the above user mentioned with no available plan, that MIGHT be a half-way decent defense but still would not excuse violating the TOS. Could probably get a waiver of any backcharges (you technically can't steal a service that isn't offered, though they could claim you should have gotten a mobile broadband plan) but would not stop VZW from terminating you and hitting you with an ETF.

 

[xan]

Vrz will only let you talkto informed reps I'd you pay extra. Lol.

 

[czerdrill]

Really, stealing what? Itz like VZW saying you can't use google maps because you didn't agree to the $15 a month for vznavigator and that they are the ones transferring your data. Its their GPS in your phone too, I bet. And the wireless card.

As long as you're not going of your infinite but now somehow finite data plan usage, you can use that data how you please; if I wanna transfer it to and from my other devices using my own airwaves, that is my business.

Stealing what? Tethering is not a service that VZW can even consider offering. Its not their domain. I could swear there are some verizon reps in here right now. Hahaha.

What's next? No more google voice? No more free visual voicemail? No more almost free voIP? They could do that you know, if tethering is against TOS. Tethering doesn't make you use anymore data than usual bro. Without tethering you can still run bit torrent clients on your phone, downloading huge amounts of data, same as a pc. Those are probably against TOC too though huh?

By user tethering, no extra labor and no extra cost are incurred by VZW. They simply wish to get more money out of your pocket for things that are already free.

I support you using your data "as you please", in fact I encourage you to do so (it will provide entertainment later). I just ask that when/if you get caught you don't start a thread saying "OMGGGGG VERIZON IS THE DEVIL!!!" cuz you'll be laughed at.

I have no interest in posting that here, or anywhere for that matter. If / when they catch me, while staying well below 2GB a month, and they charge me anything extra, Ill be going to court. And ill be bringing up the false advertising for unlimited data. I signed nothing stating that my unlimited was actually limited. Ill do it for the lulz. And because someone has to stand up.

But don't worry, you wont be hearing it from me. Id sooner win the lottery than any of this hypothetical situation take place

Haha what?? Your going to take a corporation to court when you knowingly violated your tos? Again, I encourage you to move forward with this if you get caught. This could be pretty hilarious.