P3Droid: Some Food for Thought - Bootloaders, Rooting, Manufacturers, and Carriers

[czerdrill]

It does affect the non-root users to some extent because these companies are spending money to try to lock these phones down and do you think they just eat that cost or do you think they pass the expense on to the consumer? Plus as they take more control over your phone we will they will boldly add more bloat, more ads, and more charges to use features that are built into the phones. Do we really want to end up with "Android" phones that only run V Cast apps? Or a "Google" phone that can only use Bing search? Or have an additional monthly fee to "unlock" wifi and GPS? They can just say it is in your ToS that you can't use wifi or GPS on your phone unless you pay VZW a monthly fee to and get their special certified app. Obviously at some point consumers will say enough is enough but how far do we let this B.S. continue before we decide it has gone too far?

Good point, and yeah that is true. I think it's safe to say that if android gets to that point, it'll just fall to the wayside like every other company. I hope (or at least pray) that Google mans up and doesn't allow something that extreme to happen.

As for your other points, you're not going to see some ridiculous price changes because of locked/encrypted bootloaders. the subsidies will remain more or less the same, and have stayed that way for years. Same with the data plans. You're not gonna have to wake up tomorrow and pay $50 for a 3G data plan because all phones require encrypted bootloaders now.

I agree that the locked bootloaders aren't going to make a big change in price but it is still money and research that could be put toward improving the phone rather than being wasted on trying to stop rooters. Also although I doubt we will see the extreme cases I alluded to in the questions we have already seen the wifi unlocking charge to some extent with the Xoom tablet having locked wifi that can only be unlocked by purchasing a VZW data plan.

i think they would rather lock down the phones then save money by not encrypting bootloaders, plus i assume that any distribution/production deal with an OEM involves a set amount of money and it's not paid on the fly.

the wifi thing you pointed out is true though, and ultimately it does go back to Google.

They need to stop allowing some of this stuff. I mean they are in it for money and not for the people as some forum users may think, but at the same time, android wasn't truly open before and things like this (true or not) have the potential to make it even less so.

but again, i'm of the group that doesn't believe this crap that p3droid posted lol, as he's just some dev who "knows someone who knows someone who knows someone who ate dinner with a verizon exec that got too drunk and revealed company secrets". i tend to trust verizon only when it comes to official announcements and not basement devs or people who think they're in the know because their high school classmate has a part time job as a sales rep in some boondock verizon branch...

 

[52brandon]

you two are missing the obvious point, as is every other "freedom fighter" here. you two may not be tethering, but the fact of the matter is many rooters are. and that's why rooters are being targeted. if anyone here believes vzw is doing this to go after rooters who put a theme on their phone, they're very naive and have the "corporations are evil and out to get me" childish mentality. it's simply not the case. verizon is going after rooters because rooters are the ones who tether the most. and tethering is stealing a service from them.

to the person who said "if we don't matter why are these measures being taken"? again...because rooters are stealing a service. that doesn't mean that 5 people boycotting verizon is going to affect them. but no company is going to put up with even 1 person stealing a service from them. it doesn't mean vzw is shaking in their boots wondering what to do when the 30-something people who actually will boycott, do. we all know everyone here swearing up and down that "i'm leaving verizon!" and "if this happens, i'm canceling everything verizon i own and burning my verizon visor" or "i'm done with verizon, this is unfair, i'm going to sue if they do this" isn't going to do a thing. it's all talk, and verizon knows that. put your money where your mouth is, or obey the contract that you signed. you are not in control, vzw is, and that's just what it is. the only options are to accept that, or do something about it.

since we all know no one here is going to do anything about it, i fail to see why threads like this come up all the time.

if tethering is the "obvious point", why not remove the apps from the market? Seems like an obvious solution... but they don't, they lock bootloaders, and push OTA updates to detect rooting, not tethering...

if they are really doing this, which no one has any proof of except some article by p3droid with no sources except people who are "afraid of losing their job", i'm sure the tethering apps will be removed.

so you're really thinking that verizon is taking these measures to stop someone from removing bloatware? or theming? or overclocking? bloatware that the people who root, would never use regardless? what would be the point of undertaking something like this to prevent the removal of bloatware?

secondly, its not like you cant sideload a tethering app...removing it from the market is not going to stop someone who is saavy enough to tether in the first place would it? if you find out that pdanet is no longer available on the market, will you put on the sackcloth and say "woe is me" and beat your chest, or would you simply go here: android-wifi-tether - Wireless Tether for Root Users - Google Project Hosting

Honestly, I don't understand why verizon is going through all the trouble to stop you from rooting, especially when BT tether is free as pointed out earlier. If tethering was the only reason, I would imagine they would first remove the apps from the market, and then send cease and desist letters to developers of said apps, then sue said developers if they don't stop. None of that has happened. What they have done is made rooting more difficult on numerous devices and (allegedly) started using other measures to punish rooted users

 

[GodfatherIP]

i think they would rather lock down the phones then save money by not encrypting bootloaders, plus i assume that any distribution/production deal with an OEM involves a set amount of money and it's not paid on the fly.

the wifi thing you pointed out is true though, and ultimately it does go back to Google.

They need to stop allowing some of this stuff. I mean they are in it for money and not for the people as some forum users may think, but at the same time, android wasn't truly open before and things like this (true or not) have the potential to make it even less so.

but again, i'm of the group that doesn't believe this crap that p3droid posted lol, as he's just some dev who "knows someone who knows someone who knows someone who ate dinner with a verizon exec that got too drunk and revealed company secrets". i tend to trust verizon only when it comes to official announcements and not basement devs or people who think they're in the know because their high school classmate has a part time job as a sales rep in some boondock verizon branch...

As you said "they" would rather spend the money and lock the phone down but the consumer (even the average Joe who isn't rooting) doesn't benefit from this practice. It is negative for users who want to root and neutral for those who don't. The only people benefiting from this practice are the corporations who can pack in more bloat, lock down features, and add more charges.

I also don't think that this is the end of the rooting world or anything but I don't doubt that Verizon, Motorola, etc. would like to stop rooters and lock down devices as much as possible. However, I seriously doubt that they will be terminating many contracts over it. As long as they are profiting off of you they want to continue taking your money regardless of whether you rooted your phone or not. That is why AT&T sent out letters to people illegally tethering offering to "upgrade" them to a plan with tethering rather than sending out letters saying we have cut off your service because you violated the ToS. Even with that supposedly people who called up and complained that they were wrongly accused were let off the hook because it is more trouble than it is worth for AT&T to try to take individuals to court and prove that they used tethering illegally. Plus such a case could lead to challenges that question the legality of charging an additional tethering fee when a consumer is already paying for an unlimited data plan and they definitely don't want the court to rule against them on that. So even if they have "identified" me as a root user and are "tracking" me like P3Droid says I doubt much will come of it as long as I don't cancel my home internet and try to use my Droid's 3G to replace it.

 

[SquireSCA]

Yeah, I mean if tethering was the real issue, what makes more sense economically for Verizon?

1) Know that I tether once in awhile with my rooted phone, but so long as I am under my data limit, look the other way and take my $130 a month.

Or...

2) Spend a lot of time, money and effort to try to track me down and terminate my service, and lose the $130 a month in revenue, and I tell them to pound sand when they ask for the ETF?

The bottom line is that going after people who tether, even a little bit, costs them money and will cost them a lot of suscriptions. I don't know about you, but I would rather take your $130 a month and not worry about tethering as long as it is minimal, than to lose you altogether as a customer, wouldn't you?

This is about so much more than tethering, but we already know that.

VZW wants to bring back the old days where it wasn't about you buying a phone and service and then you doing what you want. They want to be able to charge for everything that you do with that phone.

 

[TheOldFart]

Yeah, I mean if tethering was the real issue, what makes more sense economically for Verizon?

1) Know that I tether once in awhile with my rooted phone, but so long as I am under my data limit, look the other way and take my $130 a month.

Or...

2) Spend a lot of time, money and effort to try to track me down and terminate my service, and lose the $130 a month in revenue, and I tell them to pound sand when they ask for the ETF?

The bottom line is that going after people who tether, even a little bit, costs them money and will cost them a lot of suscriptions. I don't know about you, but I would rather take your $130 a month and not worry about tethering as long as it is minimal, than to lose you altogether as a customer, wouldn't you?

This is about so much more than tethering, but we already know that.

VZW wants to bring back the old days where it wasn't about you buying a phone and service and then you doing what you want. They want to be able to charge for everything that you do with that phone.

What data limit? There is no data limit, data is unlimited. Now if data was tiered pricing then your argument holds. By the way, that is my vote - tiered data pricing and hotspot tethering withing that amount of data. For instance, if you pay for 2GB of monthly data, then you get to use it however you want.

 

[czerdrill]

Yeah, I mean if tethering was the real issue, what makes more sense economically for Verizon?

1) Know that I tether once in awhile with my rooted phone, but so long as I am under my data limit, look the other way and take my $130 a month.

Or...

2) Spend a lot of time, money and effort to try to track me down and terminate my service, and lose the $130 a month in revenue, and I tell them to pound sand when they ask for the ETF?

The bottom line is that going after people who tether, even a little bit, costs them money and will cost them a lot of suscriptions. I don't know about you, but I would rather take your $130 a month and not worry about tethering as long as it is minimal, than to lose you altogether as a customer, wouldn't you?

This is about so much more than tethering, but we already know that.

VZW wants to bring back the old days where it wasn't about you buying a phone and service and then you doing what you want. They want to be able to charge for everything that you do with that phone.

To be honest the whole thing sounds like crap to me. There is no real economical reason for them to go after rooters, or light tetherers as you mentioned. the heavy ones who replace their ISPs yes, they are fools and should be dealt with as such.

I just dont believe the p3droid crap. I think he was just bored one day and decided to write up a bunch of garbage. Verizon is not a stupid company. If they do this, it'll be because of tethering, something that loses them money. It's not gonna be because they don't want you to theme. i highly doubt any of this is going to happen, and the only people that may get terminated are the fools who use 50GB a month, all the while whining about how they're allowed to because of their unlimited data plan...

 

[OneTenderRebel]

Yeah, I mean if tethering was the real issue, what makes more sense economically for Verizon?

1) Know that I tether once in awhile with my rooted phone, but so long as I am under my data limit, look the other way and take my $130 a month.

Or...

2) Spend a lot of time, money and effort to try to track me down and terminate my service, and lose the $130 a month in revenue, and I tell them to pound sand when they ask for the ETF?

The bottom line is that going after people who tether, even a little bit, costs them money and will cost them a lot of suscriptions. I don't know about you, but I would rather take your $130 a month and not worry about tethering as long as it is minimal, than to lose you altogether as a customer, wouldn't you?

This is about so much more than tethering, but we already know that.

VZW wants to bring back the old days where it wasn't about you buying a phone and service and then you doing what you want. They want to be able to charge for everything that you do with that phone.

What data limit? There is no data limit, data is unlimited. Now if data was tiered pricing then your argument holds. By the way, that is my vote - tiered data pricing and hotspot tethering withing that amount of data. For instance, if you pay for 2GB of monthly data, then you get to use it however you want.

that is a good idea but the way you can eat up data on a computer and the pricing they offer their tiered packages at, it could get costly real quick.

 

[dfuser312553]

Yeah, I mean if tethering was the real issue, what makes more sense economically for Verizon?

1) Know that I tether once in awhile with my rooted phone, but so long as I am under my data limit, look the other way and take my $130 a month.

Or...

2) Spend a lot of time, money and effort to try to track me down and terminate my service, and lose the $130 a month in revenue, and I tell them to pound sand when they ask for the ETF?

The bottom line is that going after people who tether, even a little bit, costs them money and will cost them a lot of suscriptions. I don't know about you, but I would rather take your $130 a month and not worry about tethering as long as it is minimal, than to lose you altogether as a customer, wouldn't you?

This is about so much more than tethering, but we already know that.

VZW wants to bring back the old days where it wasn't about you buying a phone and service and then you doing what you want. They want to be able to charge for everything that you do with that phone.

What data limit? There is no data limit, data is unlimited. Now if data was tiered pricing then your argument holds. By the way, that is my vote - tiered data pricing and hotspot tethering withing that amount of data. For instance, if you pay for 2GB of monthly data, then you get to use it however you want.

that is a good idea but the way you can eat up data on a computer and the pricing they offer their tiered packages at, it could get costly real quick.

I could get on board with something like that but if overage pricing is anything like the cards (from another decade) I think I'll just keep it how it is; freely available whenever I feel like it. Tanx Google!

 

[TheOldFart]

What data limit? There is no data limit, data is unlimited. Now if data was tiered pricing then your argument holds. By the way, that is my vote - tiered data pricing and hotspot tethering withing that amount of data. For instance, if you pay for 2GB of monthly data, then you get to use it however you want.

that is a good idea but the way you can eat up data on a computer and the pricing they offer their tiered packages at, it could get costly real quick.

Won't LTE allow a lot more data to be transmitted over the network? If so, then they should be able to have reasonable pricing for data. As just an example - 500MB for $15, 1GB for $20, 2GB for $25, 5GB for $30, 10GB for $40. I know that data on a tethered computer can use a lot of data, but I'm not talking about replacing a cable connection with LTE, just using it when away from home and work when necessary. I often use less than 5GB a month on RoadRunner. Sometimes a lot more, but I would not be using data in that way with my tethered phone.

 

[OneTenderRebel]

What data limit? There is no data limit, data is unlimited. Now if data was tiered pricing then your argument holds. By the way, that is my vote - tiered data pricing and hotspot tethering withing that amount of data. For instance, if you pay for 2GB of monthly data, then you get to use it however you want.

that is a good idea but the way you can eat up data on a computer and the pricing they offer their tiered packages at, it could get costly real quick.

Won't LTE allow a lot more data to be transmitted over the network? If so, then they should be able to have reasonable pricing for data. As just an example - 500MB for $15, 1GB for $20, 2GB for $25, 5GB for $30, 10GB for $40. I know that data on a tethered computer can use a lot of data, but I'm not talking about replacing a cable connection with LTE, just using it when away from home and work when necessary. I often use less than 5GB a month on RoadRunner. Sometimes a lot more, but I would not be using data in that way with my tethered phone.

Yeah and how you described how you would use it, is the way it should be done. I keep hearing people talking about replacing their home ISP with 4g lte and tethering and it almost makes me cringe. I don't know how accurate these tests are but I have seen some where just a few hours of browsing and some light streaming over LTE and it eats up data like a monster. Like 2gbs in 4 hours worth. I have never seen how much data I use through my home internet. I am going to keep track this next month though just to compare the two. I won't be getting 4g where I live until 2013 I am sure though so for me 3g is far too slow to even think about using it as my everyday internet (not that I would do that anyway).

 

[dfuser312553]

Hypothetical $15 for 500mb!?! I hypotheticaly could not stomach that rip off.

 

[TheOldFart]

Yeah and how you described how you would use it, is the way it should be done. I keep hearing people talking about replacing their home ISP with 4g lte and tethering and it almost makes me cringe. I don't know how accurate these tests are but I have seen some where just a few hours of browsing and some light streaming over LTE and it eats up data like a monster. Like 2gbs in 4 hours worth. I have never seen how much data I use through my home internet. I am going to keep track this next month though just to compare the two. I won't be getting 4g where I live until 2013 I am sure though so for me 3g is far too slow to even think about using it as my everyday internet (not that I would do that anyway).

I monitored my internet usage on both my computer and my wife's computer last year for a few months using NetMeter. I just downloaded it for my new computer a few minutes ago and will check to see how much data I use while using Pandora. My wife uses very little, as she normally just reads news sites.

 

[TheOldFart]

Hypothetical $15 for 500mb!?! I hypotheticaly could not stomach that rip off.

It's not a rip off for somebody like my wife who only uses about 150MB max a month. It's a savings of $180 a year. I would bet that a lot of Verizon customers only use less than 500MB a month. I normally use less than 500MB a month too and have never hit 1GB in a month, so we would be very happy with my hypothetical pricing structure. Actually, your stomach doesn't concern me. Me saving money is what I care about.

 

[czerdrill]

Hypothetical $15 for 500mb!?! I hypotheticaly could not stomach that rip off.

It's not a rip off for somebody like my wife who only uses about 150MB max a month. It's a savings of $180 a year. I would bet that a lot of Verizon customers only use less than 500MB a month. I normally use less than 500MB a month too and have never hit 1GB in a month, so we would be very happy with my hypothetical pricing structure. Actually, your stomach doesn't concern me. Me saving money is what I care about.

+1. I can't wait for tiered pricing. Will save me hundreds. The highest I've ever gone is like 600mb

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

 

[OneTenderRebel]

I generally come in at about 1gb every month for my droid1. I use it pretty often though for browsing and streaming.