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A Plan For A Brighter Android Future

@czerdrill

If this plan were to implemented the way things are now. It wouldn't work.
But it would have to be done more like how computer companies do it. Walk through restoration with you if you pay for some support plan. I guess there would have to be support... you would just have to pay a little extra for it. Or maybe you get support for the first month.. or something. But with IRC chats, and forums.. most problems could be resolved, especially with a SBF disc

{{ WugFresh }}
 
Ok. I will respond to another one of your devils advocate posts:

I should rephrase. Not policies. GOOD policies. Policies that only account for provider side actions. There is no variables left to the end users.

If the data plans are tiered. Then the user can use their data however they want.

If the warranty agreement is voided when you unlock the device. Then it is voided. You could require the user to call the company to get your unlock key. That way, even if you could hack the unlock app. It doesn't matter. You called in. You switched to the dev plan. And now you are a dev. You pay this much a month. There will be no way to exploit the system like that. There are no things that can be exploited. GOOD policies fix problems. BAD policies get exploited. The only reason the provider is dealing with it now. Is because it started putting lots of strain on their network... and now they either need to build more infrastructure. Or stop people from tethering. They are still trying to attack it in silly ways. Update the baseband.... That will just be hacked again. Send out notices... People will just ignore them.

Change the policies so that it doesn't matter what the user does. They could do anything they want... in the end they have to pay X amount of money for the phone and Z amount of money per month. And have those variables be numbers that make it worth it. Does that prove my point.

{{ WugFresh }}

Not at all. Let's break down your post step by step:

1) "There is no variables left to the end users" -- I'll ask it again, and I know you enjoy avoiding this question, but here goes: so you're saying that every dev and every wannabe dev, will just say "Wow, VZW locked us down. There's nothing we can do. They have stopped development in its tracks. There's no point in even trying to find some way to beat the system, because there is none...I give up!"? Is that what you're saying?

2) "If the data plans are tiered. Then the user can use their data however they want." -- so if a tiered user goes over his plan limits and gets charged extra, they'll all...every single one of them say "oh those VZW guys got us! i went over my limit and i deserve to pay what I was charged. No complaints here!" Is that what you're saying?

3) "If the warranty agreement is voided when you unlock the device. Then it is voided." -- so when a non-saavy user reads an online instructional on how to root their phone, and bricks its, they'll say "oh those big galoots at VZW! They got me! I'm not going to call in and ask for a replacement. I deserved this!!" Is that what you're saying?

4) " You could require the user to call the company to get your unlock key. That way, even if you could hack the unlock app. It doesn't matter. You called in." -- so VZW will somehow implement a hack proof plan? where there is no possible way on the planet that a dev can't figure out how to hack it so that it appears you're phone isn't rooted even if it is? is that what you're saying?

5) "Change the policies so that it doesn't matter what the user does. They could do anything they want... in the end they have to pay X amount of money for the phone and Z amount of money per month." -- so just by saying "we will not support you" every user will be appeased? they'll mess up their phone and say "ah well, my $600 or $250 phone is down the drain, no point in arguing with verizon because I knew what I was doing. Every android user will just adopt a new philosophy of "let's pay more and never complain"...is that...really...what...youre...saying?

You are giving me a headache..... I am going to try real hard.. but if you respond with something else that is just polar opposite of what I am saying... then I am done responding. You are no longer helping me, just so you know. You are just making me annoyed and aren't saying things that are true.

1. Yes. If SHA2 encryption were implemented. Done. I don't care how good of a hacker you are.

2. Review my data plan policies for roll over data and on demand data.

3. Nope. They are going to SBF because there is information with their device on how to do it and a disc for doing it. Pop in the live disc. Boot off it, SBF. Done. If they still have a problem, go on a tech forum. If they still have a problem, call asurion and pay the 100 bucks. Because they rather not pay the 100. They will learn how to SBF. Which will be the easiest thing ever with this disc. I have tested it.

4. Again. NO. It has nothing to do with your phone. AT ALL. You call the company and get your unlock key. Just by you requesting the unlock key, they null your warranty right there. That would be a hack proof policy.

5. Wrong. Replacement only costs 100 with insurance which will be required, or maybe even less if it can be offset with other prices. It all comes back to SBF'ing. There is no point in complaining if you can restore your device back to factory with ZERO problems. And if the user complains a lot. There could be a plan to send your phone in, they will SBF it, and then switch you back to stock.

I am saying that with a SBF disc. ALL problems can be resolved, unless the user literally fries his hardware. And in that case, they would have to pay the replacement fee.

{{ WugFresh }}

Lol wut? Now we're getting all kind of silly:

1) so now vzw has to implement sha-2 to make this an option? Do you realize the cost of this? Or are you just saying things?

2) again roll over data costs them money. Now on top of a tiered plan, they must allow you to essentially gain "unlimited data by rolling over..

3)So no chance that verizon will get called? Like...zero chance? Just sbf and done? Verizon has nothing to worry about as far as people calling in?

4) so if you hack the unlock key without calling in, it doesn't matter?, oh wait....sha-2 right?

5) so sending your phone in and them sbfing it costs them nothing? They're just willing to take on the extra cost with the belief that non saavy users will just be able to sbf and will have no need to contact them?

Just askin'...

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
 
Not at all. Let's break down your post step by step:

1) "There is no variables left to the end users" -- I'll ask it again, and I know you enjoy avoiding this question, but here goes: so you're saying that every dev and every wannabe dev, will just say "Wow, VZW locked us down. There's nothing we can do. They have stopped development in its tracks. There's no point in even trying to find some way to beat the system, because there is none...I give up!"? Is that what you're saying?

2) "If the data plans are tiered. Then the user can use their data however they want." -- so if a tiered user goes over his plan limits and gets charged extra, they'll all...every single one of them say "oh those VZW guys got us! i went over my limit and i deserve to pay what I was charged. No complaints here!" Is that what you're saying?

3) "If the warranty agreement is voided when you unlock the device. Then it is voided." -- so when a non-saavy user reads an online instructional on how to root their phone, and bricks its, they'll say "oh those big galoots at VZW! They got me! I'm not going to call in and ask for a replacement. I deserved this!!" Is that what you're saying?

4) " You could require the user to call the company to get your unlock key. That way, even if you could hack the unlock app. It doesn't matter. You called in." -- so VZW will somehow implement a hack proof plan? where there is no possible way on the planet that a dev can't figure out how to hack it so that it appears you're phone isn't rooted even if it is? is that what you're saying?

5) "Change the policies so that it doesn't matter what the user does. They could do anything they want... in the end they have to pay X amount of money for the phone and Z amount of money per month." -- so just by saying "we will not support you" every user will be appeased? they'll mess up their phone and say "ah well, my $600 or $250 phone is down the drain, no point in arguing with verizon because I knew what I was doing. Every android user will just adopt a new philosophy of "let's pay more and never complain"...is that...really...what...youre...saying?

You are giving me a headache..... I am going to try real hard.. but if you respond with something else that is just polar opposite of what I am saying... then I am done responding. You are no longer helping me, just so you know. You are just making me annoyed and aren't saying things that are true.

1. Yes. If SHA2 encryption were implemented. Done. I don't care how good of a hacker you are.

2. Review my data plan policies for roll over data and on demand data.

3. Nope. They are going to SBF because there is information with their device on how to do it and a disc for doing it. Pop in the live disc. Boot off it, SBF. Done. If they still have a problem, go on a tech forum. If they still have a problem, call asurion and pay the 100 bucks. Because they rather not pay the 100. They will learn how to SBF. Which will be the easiest thing ever with this disc. I have tested it.

4. Again. NO. It has nothing to do with your phone. AT ALL. You call the company and get your unlock key. Just by you requesting the unlock key, they null your warranty right there. That would be a hack proof policy.

5. Wrong. Replacement only costs 100 with insurance which will be required, or maybe even less if it can be offset with other prices. It all comes back to SBF'ing. There is no point in complaining if you can restore your device back to factory with ZERO problems. And if the user complains a lot. There could be a plan to send your phone in, they will SBF it, and then switch you back to stock.

I am saying that with a SBF disc. ALL problems can be resolved, unless the user literally fries his hardware. And in that case, they would have to pay the replacement fee.

{{ WugFresh }}

Lol wut? Now we're getting all kind of silly:

1) so now vzw has to implement sha-2 to make this an option? Do you realize the cost of this? Or are you just saying things?

2) again roll over data costs them money. Now on top of a tiered plan, they must allow you to essentially gain "unlimited data by rolling over..

3)So no chance that verizon will get called? Like...zero chance? Just sbf and done? Verizon has nothing to worry about as far as people calling in?

4) so if you hack the unlock key without calling in, it doesn't matter?, oh wait....sha-2 right?

5) so sending your phone in and them sbfing it costs them nothing? They're just willing to take on the extra cost with the belief that non saavy users will just be able to sbf and will have no need to contact them?

Just askin'...

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

1. No they don't. I thought you were talking about what was happening now and how they were moving towards stronger lock downs. They would have to implement what sony did. Same tech thats already made.

2. roll over is not unlimited, you could only roll over one month ahead per month. There is still a cap. (amount of data per month X 12 months) = Cap.

3. They will get called. This will have to be factored in to some degree. With support plan. But there will be incentives not to call.

4. You are not going to be able to hack the public key. You don't understand encryption. Even SHA1, which is already implement in the DX for the bootloader. No extra money. Accept overhead to make the app.

5. It will cost money. Will be factored in. Will have to determine how many people in this world don't know how to put a cd in a cd drive, and then factor in the pricing accordingly.

6. czerdrill please buy an iphone and stop harassing me. I don't see how you are helping anymore.

{{ WugFresh }}
 
Whatever. Keep going. I am just getting frustrated tonight. I will come back on tomorrow. I will be more level headed. Say whatever comes to mind. Even if it is wildly in accurate. I don't care. I just can't deal with this right now. Goodnight.

{{ WugFresh }}
 
You are giving me a headache..... I am going to try real hard.. but if you respond with something else that is just polar opposite of what I am saying... then I am done responding. You are no longer helping me, just so you know. You are just making me annoyed and aren't saying things that are true.

1. Yes. If SHA2 encryption were implemented. Done. I don't care how good of a hacker you are.

2. Review my data plan policies for roll over data and on demand data.

3. Nope. They are going to SBF because there is information with their device on how to do it and a disc for doing it. Pop in the live disc. Boot off it, SBF. Done. If they still have a problem, go on a tech forum. If they still have a problem, call asurion and pay the 100 bucks. Because they rather not pay the 100. They will learn how to SBF. Which will be the easiest thing ever with this disc. I have tested it.

4. Again. NO. It has nothing to do with your phone. AT ALL. You call the company and get your unlock key. Just by you requesting the unlock key, they null your warranty right there. That would be a hack proof policy.

5. Wrong. Replacement only costs 100 with insurance which will be required, or maybe even less if it can be offset with other prices. It all comes back to SBF'ing. There is no point in complaining if you can restore your device back to factory with ZERO problems. And if the user complains a lot. There could be a plan to send your phone in, they will SBF it, and then switch you back to stock.

I am saying that with a SBF disc. ALL problems can be resolved, unless the user literally fries his hardware. And in that case, they would have to pay the replacement fee.

{{ WugFresh }}

Lol wut? Now we're getting all kind of silly:

1) so now vzw has to implement sha-2 to make this an option? Do you realize the cost of this? Or are you just saying things?

2) again roll over data costs them money. Now on top of a tiered plan, they must allow you to essentially gain "unlimited data by rolling over..

3)So no chance that verizon will get called? Like...zero chance? Just sbf and done? Verizon has nothing to worry about as far as people calling in?

4) so if you hack the unlock key without calling in, it doesn't matter?, oh wait....sha-2 right?

5) so sending your phone in and them sbfing it costs them nothing? They're just willing to take on the extra cost with the belief that non saavy users will just be able to sbf and will have no need to contact them?

Just askin'...

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

1. No they don't. I thought you were talking about what was happening now and how they were moving towards stronger lock downs. They would have to implement what sony did. Same tech thats already made.

2. roll over is not unlimited, you could only roll over one month ahead per month. There is still a cap. (amount of data per month X 12 months) = Cap.

3. They will get called. This will have to be factored in to some degree. With support plan. But there will be incentives not to call.

4. You are not going to be able to hack the public key. You don't understand encryption. Even SHA1, which is already implement in the DX for the bootloader. No extra money. Accept overhead to make the app.

5. It will cost money. Will be factored in. Will have to determine how many people in this world don't know how to put a cd in a cd drive, and then factor in the pricing accordingly.

6. czerdrill please buy an iphone and stop harassing me. I don't see how you are helping anymore.

{{ WugFresh }}

1) ? How did you misunderstand what I was saying...but ok.

2) not understanding this. If the cap is five gigs and I rollover one gig every month, by month twelve I will have 17 gigs...which is...pretty much unlimited especially if illegal tethering is stopped. And the people that use that much a month legitimately is probably not more than a couple thousand (if that)

3)ok so itll cost them money. No incentive

4) you lost all credibility when you told me I don't understand encryption. Need I remind you, you were actually going to search for hash collisions two weeks ago? Till I told you how silly that was? Trust me....i understand encryption. And trust me, you don't understand that encryption costs them more

5)ok. So you have to convince them to spend more money with no gain. Good luck.

6) silliness, bought about by frustration. It's cool.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
 
What part of the phrase"factored in" do you not grasp? You keep saying it will cost the carrier money and wugfresh keeps saying, that will be assessed and the cost will be transferred to the consumer willing to pay extra for a dev key for the phone. And if you are so versed in encryption, go spend some time trying to crack moto bootloaders instead of forcing myopic, and frankly, simplistic protests against what theoretically is nothing more than a brainstorming thread. Thanks for your concern.

Sent from my Droid using DroidForums
 
Czerdrill lets wrap it up please. This thread should have been closed 8 pages ago. The arguements have run their course. If this continues we will have to close this up. I don't want to babysit this thread anymore.

Thanks gentlemen.......

Sent from my Droid
 
czerdrill, you are like a drill into my head.

2.) (5+1)(12) = 72 not 17. (5)(12) = 60. Which is how much you pay for. At month ten: (5+1)(10) = 60, you will have reached your cap. You would have to pay for more data for month eleven and twelve.

3.) customer having to pay for support plan vs. not. incentive.

4.) don't tell me I lost credibility. That is your first personal attack. I am very credible, and I am offended that you would even consider saying otherwise. Just tell me I am wrong. Ok. You understand encryption. And encryption costs money. Overhead they have already spent. The overhead will be on the one app. A one time developer cost, negligible to gains from being paid for service every month by all the new customers they will sign. And will be another expense, a long with support costs that will have to be factored in.
5.) Again... I really think you are very confused regarding the majority of work I am planning on doing. I never said that I have made these calculations yet. I am obtaining the data, and will do the break even analysis. If my computations, show that this is not possible, then I will revise the plan. If the compuations still show that it is not possible, then I will revise the plan. If there is no way to make it profitable, then my plan fails. I think you forgot that I am working on an IMC and that I am not turning over a bunch of assumptions to a company. I am doing research and calculations to determine if it can be profitable. You brought up some good points, regarding the fact that I will have to factor in some degree of support. All of the other things you brought up I was already aware of. I know that I have to account for overhead for all the fix costs. The big thing you brought up is the variable cost of support. Which very well could make this plan not profitable. But to the same extent could still work, if the pricing scheme is correct, and the market research shows me the number of users that will need support. EVERYTHING that I have stated in this proposal, will be turned into HARD data, and then submitted as a financial report and marketing campaign. You can argue my assumptions all day... it's not going to get me anywhere. And now that you have decided to go after my credibility, I am personally asking that you stop posting, because you are simply just trying to be DRILL into my Brain. You are not helping at all any more. Thank you for making me consider the cost of support, or creating some support plan. I will make sure to include that in my financial analysis. Ok?

{{ WugFresh }}
 
Czerdrill lets wrap it up please. This thread should have been closed 8 pages ago. The arguements have run their course. If this continues we will have to close this up. I don't want to babysit this thread anymore.

Thanks gentlemen.......

Sent from my Droid

Please do not close this thread. That would be really upsetting.

{{ WugFresh }}
 
@czerdrill, please lets stop arguing here and take it to PM. I don't want this thread closed. Is that cool with you?

{{ WugFresh }}
 
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